Topps Tiles (LSE:TPT) — HY results

0:00 Good morning, and welcome to TOPPS TILES PLC investor presentation. Throughout this recorded presentation, investors will be in listen only mode. Questions are encouraged and will be submitted at any time via the q and a tab situated on the right hand corner of your screen. Simply type in your questions and press send. Company may not be in a position to answer every question it receives during the meeting itself. However, the company can review all questions submitted today and publish responses where it's appropriate to do so. Before we begin, I'd like to submit the following poll. I'd now like to hand you over to Alex Jensen, CEO. Good morning.

0:31 Thank you, Lily, and welcome everyone to the TOPPS interim update. I'm joined, of course, today by our interim CFO, Rob Swales. So to put these first half results into context, mission three six five lays out an ambition to grow revenue 50% higher than the 2024 baseline and to deliver PBT margin of 8%. In 2025, we achieved 40% of this revenue ambition and 12% of our profit growth ambition. In December, I laid out six priorities for the year crucial to realizing this ambition. And I'm pleased to say that we've made significant progress against each.

1:19 And to remind you, they were to increase focus on bottom line, to deliver trade growth, to accelerate digital, to increase sales excellence in tops, and to tackle the non profitable parts of the business. And I'm gonna talk to you about these in detail later in the presentation. But to summarize at high level, we have increased our focus on profit. We continue to expand gross margin and have implemented three major self help cost initiatives aimed at accelerating progress to 8% PBT margin.

2:05 On the top line, we have outperformed a softer RMI market. This has been underpinned by growth in trade, in digital, and delivering in sales excellence and new categories. We have also had a laser like focus on improving the profit of our acquisitions with the loss on CTD more than halving and fired earth already profitable after four months. Moving now to financial highlights. I've used the pro form a numbers here where quite simply, we've added CTD trading back into twenty twenty five numbers, so we can see a comparison on a similar basis. We delivered flat year on year pro form a revenue against the market that declined by 2.5%.

2:57 Thanks to strong gross margin management, this flowed through to a 2.9% gross profit increase. We managed costs tightly, partially offsetting the cumulative impact of government led inflation through self help. This therefore led to a 17.3% increase in pro form a operating profit and flat year on year PBT profit due to the increase in interest paid. Looking ahead, and as we mentioned in the RNS, we're expecting modest p b t growth in full year, supported by structural self help cost saving initiatives executed and weighted to the second half. So I'd now like to pass over to Rob, who will take us through the financials in more detail.

3:49 Rob, over to you. Thank you, Alex, and hello all. I think a good starting point, just before we jump into the financial results, is just to explain the presentation of the numbers that Alex has just mentioned. Given the impact of the CTD business year on year. So you may recall that in f y twenty five, CTD was completely adjusted out of the of the adjusted financial measures, largely due to the impact of the ongoing CMA process. However, in f y twenty six, CTD is included in the in the adjusted measures, given we now have full control of this business. So in order to present the adjusted financials on a comparative basis, we've also shown a pro form a view, which brings CTD trading into the f y twenty five base, and this is what you see in the green box on the right hand side.

4:43 So next so let's now walk through the key financial results. Firstly, from a revenue perspective, we're broadly flat year on year on a pro form a basis, which is the minus naught point two in the top right. Within this, TOPPS TILES like for like was marginally positive in the half at plus naught point one, and our online pure play revenue grew strongly, although total CTD revenue was down, due to fewer stores year on year. Pro form a gross margin percentage performance was strong. It was up 1.6 basis points, at 1.6 percentage points, driven largely by TOPPS TILES margin growth, consequently driving a 2.9% increase in pro form a gross profit. Operating costs, however, grew by 1.8% with the impact of inflation and the additional cost to support the growth of the Protylar and Fired Earth businesses, largely then offset by cost save cost savings.

5:43 As a result of the gross margin growth and the partial offset in costs, pro form a adjusted operating profit was up 17%. And then after accounting for higher interest, PBT of 2,200,000 was flat year on year on a pro form a basis, when the CTD trade ins included in the f y twenty five base. EPS was at point eight three p, and we've also announced the interim dividend at 1p per share, which is a third of f y twenty five as per our policy. So just looking at revenue in a little bit more detail. So starting with h y half year twenty five, we've added 15,000,000 of CTD revenue into rebase f y twenty five.

6:31 And against this pro form a base, revenue, as I've said, is broadly flat year on year at a 142,600,000. Now if you look at TOPPS TILES specifically in the little, in the little box, we've got a small upside from the marginally positive like for like, noting that like for like performance was ahead of the market. And we've also got a decline of 1,900,000 non like for like, which is largely driven by our store rationalization program starting in h one, which while sales dilutive will be profit accretive as we look to rebalance the profitability of the business. Online has been very strong, particularly in ProTyla, which was circa twenty percent up year on year. And the addition of the Fired Earth business has also driven strong revenue contribution of about 1,000,000 as part of the first half.

7:26 You'll see as well that CTD revenue has reduced by 2,800,000. And as I've said already, that's largely due to the impact of fewer stores year on year. We traded from 22 stores in h one this year versus about 30 in the prior year. Although it is worth noting that CTD store like for like in the first half was positive at plus 11%.

7:55 Moving on to gross margin. You can see firstly that adding CTD into the base, which has a structurally low lower margin, has a two percentage points drag on last year's gross profit margin. Then on a pro form a basis, we've increased gross margin by a 160 basis points year on year. This is predominantly driven by TOPPS TILES, where close management of COGS and price management has more than offset the mix impact we're seeing, where growth in trade and essentials naturally dilutes the TOPPS margin. An additional margin rate upside in the half has been the focus on improving CTD's margin post the CMA investigation and post getting full control of this business. This is where we focused on product range, pricing, discounts, and delivery.

8:46 In addition, we've also benefited from the build of the Fired Earth brand, which operates at a structurally advantaged gross margin. Another mix impact is also evident, the the naught point 6%. Another mix impact is evident through the strong growth in our online brand ProTyla. This operates on a structurally lower margin. So this growth, however, does deliver strong additional gross profit on a cash basis, but will continue to dilute the overall margin percentage of the group as it grows. And that brings us to our 53% adjusted gross margin in in the first half twenty six. Finally, on margin, it's also worth noting that in the first half on a on a brand basis, on a brand level, gross margin growth was strong. I've already talked about TOPPS, but ProTyler and CTD margins grew strongly in in the in the year relative to the prior year.

9:47 If we now look at movements in operating costs, we see firstly that bringing CTD into the f y twenty five base adds about 6,000,000 of cost. Then on a pro form a basis, costs have grown 1.8% year on year, which equates to about 1,200,000, and broadly offset some of the gross margin benefit, partially offset some of the gross margin benefit explained in the previous slide. So within the costs, we've seen about just over 2,000,000 of of increase due to government driven inflationary costs, including the impact of national living wage and NIC increases. However, our strong cost management through cost control and self help initiatives have fully offset the impact of inflation. Within the self help cost savings, it's predominantly driven by savings in TOPPS TILES where we talked about having fewer stores as part of the rationalization program and other cost initiatives in TOPPS.

10:43 Plus savings have been delivered through CTD, as we continue to focus on returning this business business to profit. Further savings are expected in h two as a consequence of the self help actions we've taken, and we'll explain this in more detail later in the presentation. Partially offsetting the cost savings are 1,400,000 of investments we've made in the half. Now this includes investments in our digital infrastructure, including the ERP upgrade, and our customer facing digital investments, including the trade app, all of which we anticipate to improve the core infrastructure of the group and deliver a solid ROI. Strong growth of our ProTiler and Fired Earth businesses have also also have associated cost increases, but these have grown at a lower rate than the sales growth in these businesses.

11:31 So to summarize the p and l performance on a pro form a basis, we've seen revenue broadly flat but ahead of a declining market, strong growth on margin with a 160 basis points increase pro form a, partially offset by just over 1,000,000 of cost cost growth, which consequently results in a 17% increase in in operate in pro form a operating profit. And then after interest costs, adjusted PBT of 2,200,000 is flat on a pro form a basis year on year. However, the performance does highlight the necessity of the self help measures we've put in place, and which Alex will build on shortly.

12:11 So just moving on to cash. From a cash position, the half ended in a small net debt position of minus of 3,100,000, relative to a net cash position of 7,000,000 at the year end September 25. Whilst cash from operations has increased about 5,000,000, working capital offsets this in the first half due to an unwind of payables, as part of the from year end as part of the buying cycle. Working capital is also impacted by higher f y '25 s tip, and a stock increase in ProTyla as the business expands. CTD shows a small cash benefit across H 1 of just over 1,000,000, where where we focused on tight stock management. Capital investment in in in H 1 of 2,300,000 has been focused on investment in digital, including the trade app, which is currently being launched, and our investment in infrastructure as we upgrade the ERP systems and our tilling infrastructure.

13:11 Note that CapEx is lower than last year in H 1, given the prior year investment in in DC 2, our distribution center in Northampton, that now supports Protylar CTD and Fired Earth. Dividend outflows in H 1 reflect the FY '25 declared dividend, whilst the other notable cash outflow in the half relates to the acquisition of the Fired Earth brand. We still have in place a 30,000,000 RCF facility that provides significant headroom. And as per previous years, we expect a modest cash build in h two as we benefit from our h two weighted profit delivery, and an improvement in unwinding working capital. And we expect to deliver a small net cash position at year end.

14:00 So I'm now gonna hand you back to Alex, who's gonna give you an update on the strategy. Thanks, Rob. So as mentioned at the start, mission three sixty five continues to be an important milestone. Two years on from launch at the end of last year, we were 40% of the way to Mission three six five on revenue with profit at 12%. And as a reminder, our strategy serves retail homeowners, commercial specifiers, and professional trade installers. And this graph shows how five key areas will deliver growth across these areas to get us to our revenue goal of Mission three sixty five. The acquisition of Fired Earth positions us to compete in the premium segment and the consolidation of tile warehouse into TOPPS strengthens our ability to grow in the value segment.

14:56 The last block has been updated to reflect these changes.

15:06 As mentioned, in December, shortly becoming, before becoming CEO, I laid out our priorities for 2026. And these were an increased focus on the bottom line, delivering trade growth, accelerating digital, growing sales capability in TOPPS, and tackling the non profitable parts of the business. And then and of course, then on onboarding a new CFO and creating a high performing team. So let me go through each of these priorities in turn starting with an increased focus on the bottom line. So Mission three six five already has a strong focus on revenue generation and a track record of expanding gross margin.

15:54 In the first half, as previously mentioned, we continued to generate a strong gross margin with TOPPS TILES, CTD, and ProTyler driving a 1.6 points uplift on a performer basis. So you can see that in the middle, the the top of the middle has continued focus on strong GM. However, as you can see on the top chart in orange, conversion of gross profit to PVT margin is low and has been declining. If we look at why, our TOPPS TILES store estate makes up around 60% of the group's cost base. It's operated with a relatively inflexible labor model and has been exposed to government led inflation in the form of national living wage, where rates have risen by 29% over the last three years.

16:51 And you can see this cost increase on the green bars and in the national living wage increase on the bottom. And the pricing required to offset these costs constrain sales growth. Therefore, in addition to cost control on COGS, we've also implemented three business specific transformation plans to improve profit. Firstly, in January, we communicated to our organization the closure of 23 loss making stores over nine months in 2026. Most of these stores were closed to other locations allowing a proportion of sales to transfer. In fact, 20 to 40% sales transfer has been observed in previous programs, making the program profit accretive.

17:40 Secondly, across the remaining estate, we're rolling out a new store productivity model designed to better match staffing to customer demand. And this dynamic approach increases flexibility and brings our labor model in line with best practice in retail. Thirdly, we've consolidated a number of roles in head office and central functions and reinvested some of the savings back into areas we see the largest growth momentum. These programs are weighted into the second half and full benefits will be realized in 2027. Across all three, they're forecast to deliver 6,000,000 sustainable annual benefits to offset future inflation and headwinds.

18:31 Our second priority is to grow trade. Now traders use the group's brands frequently and act as brand ambassadors to other traders and to homeowners. We're focused on improving our value propositions to them, so we so we can expand trader acquisition loyalty. In the first half, we delivered a 4.1% growth before the impact of CTD, which diluted the first half due to the resizing of the CTD business during 2025. So 4.1% excluding CTD. So starting on the left hand side, in TOPPS, we strengthened our proposition to the traits segment, placing a clear emphasis on convenience and value.

19:17 In February, we launched livestock availability on essentials, enabling our trade customers to see precise in store availability. This was particularly important for the app launch that went live in May as it improves planning and efficiency for our customers. We achieved a 55% increase in the adoption of trade pay with 11% of trade customers now using this facility. Now TradePay is the credit facility we offer to traders. We offer thirty days interest free credit, and this is executed in a disciplined risk assessed way in coordination with our credit finance team. By improving access to flexible payment options, we're better supporting their ability to scale their business.

20:05 And customers on trade pay spend five five times as much as regular trade customers. So on the right hand side, ProTiler tools continues to gain market share, delivering strong and consistent growth. During this period, sales increased by 20% year on year with revenue now approximately three times the level at acquisition in 2022. This performance reflects a clearly differentiated value proposition as the Tyler's brand With an unrivaled product range positioning ProTyler as the go to marketplace for professionals. And this is supported by competitive pricing, rapid fulfillment, and best in class digital marketing capability.

20:54 The continued expansion of our own brand, Prental, is driving both revenue growth and margin enhancement. And looking ahead, we see a clear runway for further growth through category expansion and deeper penetration of the Prental range.

21:13 So our third priority digital, it progresses at pace with sustained momentum across key initiatives shown here on the slide. Online revenue including CTD rose to 21% of our mix, an increase of 3.3 points versus first half last year and two points, versus full year 2025. In TOPPS TILES, we launched our new Trader app this month, And this represents a step change in the value proposition we're offering this segment, particularly around convenience and the ease with which they can now trade with us. Main benefits of the app include livestock feeds, fast access to click and collect, better loyalty visibility with a rewards ladder, improved access to trade pay, exclusive app offers and discounts to drive average transaction value and frequency.

22:12 First half marks the first six months that we use CRM capability. Our email open rates are 20% higher than the industry average, And the launch of the app enables us to personalize this, improving effectiveness and efficiency of marketing spend. The app with the link to CRM in place from now is a cornerstone for the next phase of trade growth in TOPPS, and we expect to see an improvement in trade sales in the second half. Across the group, we improved our website site capability with new websites launched for CTD, for TOPPS retail, and for Fired Earth.

22:59 And just to give you a sense of the holistic improvements we've made, in TOPPS, year on year conversion is up 16%. Checkout abandonment has decreased by 20, and speed has improved by 30%. The number of products with reviews has increased by 10% to 44%, two points higher than the industry average. At the same time, we're also increasing our focus on search engine optimization and generative engine optimization with organic visibility improving by 25% since the start of the year and the highest share of voice and AI citations amongst our competitor set.

23:46 And finally, on digital, the group wide system modernization rollout is well underway with the ERP upgrade all on track to be completed by year end across central functions, the TOPPS TILES and CTD store networks, and Parkside then follows in 2027 as planned. Protilement on a different system and we'll revisit it at a later point. And as part of this ERP upgrade, we're enhancing our point of sale infrastructure by introducing TILES with customer facing display screens. So we'll be able to link this to CRM data to deliver more personalized promotional messaging to individual customers, and over time support self-service capabilities. The rollout is already 40% complete with full completion on track for the end of June.

24:37 So loads of progress in digital.

24:41 Our fourth priority is to drive sales excellence in TOPPS by converting our inherent differentiators into stronger sales performance. And those differentiators include things that I shared in December around my first impressions of TOPPS and why I joined, mainly market beating product expertise and high quality customer service. So in the first half, starting on the left hand side, we invested in sales capability to improve the productivity of in store labor costs. We invested in people, we invested in process, and we invested in performance. On people, we developed and rolled out a top specific program training 1,000 store colleagues on benefits led selling.

25:32 On process, we drove disciplined use of our customer pipeline tools. On performance, we changed our commission schemes to drive these new behaviors and link reward with outcomes. And we measured the impact of all of that through conversion rates and average transaction values, both of which improved. Moving to the second initiative, we strengthened our position in the value segment through targeted price reductions on key value items in TOPPS TILES that generated gross profit improvement and always mindful of managing our gross margin. Let me bring this to life with an example. So Metro is one of the most popular tiles in the market.

26:20 Our price was £21.50 against the market that was at about £14.50. And we were getting feedback from trade and retail customers that we were priced too high, so we dropped the price by 30%. We supported this with clear digital and in store marketing and colleague engagement. Volume increased by a 133%, and gross profit increased by 26%. We also simplified our customer proposition by consolidating Tile Warehouse into the TOPPS TILES brand. While Tile Warehouse delivered 23% growth in the first half, operating two brands constrained our ability to present a distinctive offer to customers.

27:08 Bringing this together allows us to build on the momentum achieved by both brands whilst better leveraging the reach, the brand reach, and the efficiency of the TOPPS TILES brand. In the period, we grew category extensions by 7% with acoustic panels and shower panels performing particularly well. And we have plans to ramp up investment and focus on category extensions in the second half. And I'll share more about this in our year end results. And finally, on this slide, our focus on driving sales is underpinned by excellent customer service with Google reviews averaging 4.9 stars across 85,000 reviews.

27:56 Now having a reputation for good customer service supports local visibility and customer confidence, but it's also a key feed for generative engine optimization where reviews are an important input into the AI answer. So moving now to our fifth priority, integrating acquisitions to drive sustainable profit. CTD has delivered a 1% like for like in its stores in the first half and more than halved losses to £400,000 loss, improving £600,000 year on year. It's on track to be profitable in the second half. Two new house builder hubs dedicated to house builder needs with racked warehouse, specified coverings, and curated essentials of being opened in the second half with Minworth already open on the May 12 and CTD Newcastle opening in the fourth quarter.

29:00 We continue to grow our Parkside business, which made a small profit in 2025 and is building momentum. And as a reminder, FireDearth, the strategic rationale for our acquisition of FireDearth in November was because it expands our addressable customer base into premium. It strengthens our proposition to homeowners and house builders and it accelerates digital and that's what it brings to the group. Since acquisition, the group has also brought benefits to Fired Earth. So we've leveraged group sourcing, logistics scale, and digital capability, all whilst preserving the integrity of the Fired Earth brand.

29:46 Fired Earth sales are exceeding expectations and the brand is already profitable in the first four months of trading. We've had three milestones. In the first half, we secured long term collaborative design partnership with Nina Campbell and Nisha Crossland. And this is an important aspect of newness and inspiration for far death customers. That's that's important as part of the brand. And this week, actually last week, we launched a paint collection with a 120 colors by a drop ship with our paint partner. And finally, on top of our UK stockists, we've extended the brand reach by international stockists in four countries. We see international expansion as a good opportunity for a strong brand with clear brand differentiation around heritage, artisan craftsmanship, and quality.

30:43 So if I turn now to current trading. So on current trading, TOPPS TILES like for like has returned to positive, and it's up not point 6% in the first seven weeks. CTD stores are also positive at 3% like for like, and online businesses are continuing their strong performance with some record weeks in ProTyla. In terms of the outlook, even though the macro and geopolitical environment remains challenging, the group benefits from a resilient, regionally diversified supply chain with market leading purchasing scale.

31:31 As usual, trading is expected to be weighted towards the second half with a modest bias to second half revenues. And we'll see self help management interventions add 3,000,000 of benefit to the second half, and we expect gross margins to be broadly in line with the first half. Therefore, we expect modest year on year profit growth in the full year and in line with market expectations, assuming macro conditions and consumer confidence don't deteriorate any further. The balance sheet remains strong supported by a 30,000,000 banking facility. So let me finish with a summary before opening up to any questions. We have increased our focus on driving profitability.

32:19 And in support of this, we continue to generate a strong gross margin and have executed three self help initiatives to tackle unsustainably high costs, driven principally by government led inflation. These initiatives will underpin profit delivery in the second half of twenty twenty six and future years. We are making good progress in delivering our strategic agenda, accelerating growth in digital, trade and sales excellence, and category extensions. We are expecting to deliver modest year on year profit growth in the full year and in line with market expectations. We're confident of a further year of strategic progress and look forward to sharing the evolution of Mission three six five in our full year results.

33:09 So I'd now like to open it up to any questions for Rob and me. That's great. Thank you very much for your presentation. Ladies and gentlemen, please do continue to submit your questions just by using the q and a tab situated on the right hand corner of your screen. Just while the company take a few moments to review those questions submitted today, I'd like to remind you that a recording of this presentation along with a copy of the slides and the published q and a can be accessed via investor dashboard. As you can see, we have received number of questions throughout today's presentation. Alex, could I please ask you to read out the questions and give responses where appropriate to do so? And I'll pick up from you at the end. Very good. Yeah. Happy to. Let me just, start at the top. How do you plan to continue winning in the trade market? And why is this attractive for the business?

33:54 I mean, was a pre submitted question, so it might be that the presentation answered that. But, you know, the reason winning in trade is important is because whereas a a homeowner, may only buy tiles when they're doing their bathroom or their kitchen or floors, the trade uses TOPPS TILES regularly. They're frequent spenders. They spend more. And so creating that lock lock on with traders, creating loyalty from traders is a really important part of our strategy. And, you know, in terms of mix, about 75% of our business is currently with trade. And so in terms of how we continue to win, it is very much about making sure we're giving trade and that's trade within TOPPS, but also, you know, the contractors that support our commercial specifying business, and that work for house building or for our Parkside clients.

34:48 It's really important to give them what they're looking for. And a lot of that is around convenience, supply, reliability, and value. And as you can see from our presentation, we continue to improve our offers in those areas and, you know, we've seen growth as a result. So hopefully that answers that question. What is your enduring competitive advantage? Shall I take that one? Yeah, please. Okay. So our enduring competitive advantage, I mean, I've touched on a little bit already. So across the group, one of our, competitive advantages is category authority. So people come to us, because we are experts and you can see that in ProTylar where we are, you know, for Tylers by Tylers. A lot of our team, a top team in ProTiler, they are ex Tylers.

35:47 The I'm heading up that business set up and and is a professional Tyler. So we know what we're talking about. And homeowners come to TOPPS because they know that if they've got questions, our team is well trained and positioned to help them with those choices. So having that category, authority is important to to customers. Those who who, you know, do it a lot and those who perhaps don't do it very often. Secondly, it's the value proposition and the understanding we have of customers and how we're evolving our value proposition to make sure that we're giving them what they need around convenience, speed, and so on. And then finally, it's the fact that we have an omnichannel strategy. We firmly believe in omnichannel.

36:33 So despite the network rationalization, something like 95 of our homeowner customers and those looking at home projects, say that visiting the store is an important part of their journey. And so and obviously for traders having convenient locations is also important. So having a very strong omni channel strategy is absolutely integral to our strategy. Hopefully, that answers the question, but feel free to ask a follow-up. Right. What else have we got here? Are you seeing any this is a this is a good one and I'm sure it's on lots of your minds. I don't know if you yeah. A few of you have asked this question. Are you seeing any supplier pricing pressure from geopolitical disruption or freight inflation yet? So I'll hand over to Rob for this in a second. But what what I would say first about this is, you know, it's clear that, you know, any any, you know, macroeconomic, any any geopolitical events that affect energy markets are clearly relevant for retailers and consumers for that segment because it affects, you know, production costs, shipping, transport, as well as consumer sentiment depending on, you know, the the segment.

37:58 But we have a very geographically diverse supply chain, very resilient, long standing relationships with our suppliers, and market leading purchasing scale, which we believe, weathers us or or, positions us well to weather the challenges coming, from the energy markets. But in terms of, specifically, Rob, do want us to build on Yeah. I I think, we we are starting to see, pricing pressure come through given, the particularly the oil price increase and the fact that it's linked to production and all the stuff that Alex talked about. As she said, we've got a strong supplier relationship and a diversified supplier base that that helps us. We also have a strong product knowledge. We really understand the engineering of our our products, and our and our our teams really understand that so that they can understand if price increases come through, to what degree they are really relevant to the product based on that engineering.

38:57 From a coverings perspective, the buy cycle is is a little longer than it would be for UK production and and and some of our essentials products. So from a coverings perspective, the buy cycle takes a few months to get that product from Far East or or or near a shore to to The UK and then sold when it comes to our margins. So some of that will be will be pushed towards the the the latter stage. And then we're we're we're essentially managing things on a case by case basis, balancing, you know, the pricing versus the COGS and and and trying to do the right thing for the business and the customer. Very good. So what is the long term role of CTD versus TOPPS TILES? Great question. So CTD has a very specific role to play in the group. The reason for the acquisition was to access the housebuilder market, which has some very different needs.

39:49 So supporting housebuilders, a key part of that is making sure that we can bring products to them where they're building. And so these house builder hubs specifically catering towards a different need. For instance, you know, the racked, shelving, the racked warehouse system, forklift trucks, the the house builder, contractors can can come with flatbeds. It's it's a much more volume business. And so CTD absolutely, has a role to play, alongside, the TOPPS TILES brand. So hopefully, that answers that. And the then the market is about a 100,000,000. So it enables us to access that extra market and to increase that addressable market. Lots of questions about Fired Earth. So let's try and answer all these together. How, let's do the m and a one in a minute. Fire death appears to be oh, I just lost my connection. Hang on. Fire death appears to be outperforming expect this is why we're on the same screen because my computer connection's a little dodgy. FireDearth appears to be outperforming expectations very early.

40:56 What are the key reasons? And I think there's a couple more on FireDearth. Can we just get them all together? Okay. Maybe maybe just sort of I think they've been combined. Yeah. Okay. So expectations. I mean, it's a it's an awesome brand, isn't it? It stands for something so clear. Artisan craftsmanship, quality, you know, heritage. And so making sure we preserve that with things like, you know, the partnerships, the design partnerships that we talked about, that's all part of, making sure that that momentum continued. And we were so quick with the acquisition and then the integration into TOPPS. I mean, the team did a phenomenal job. So so good, you know, taking all the stock and moving it into our warehouse, consolidating the system, having the website up and running. A lot of customers I think didn't really notice that, you know, they were we were down. So the momentum wasn't lost. So I think I think it's because it was already a great brand and some of the things that we have done to continue to improve that with, you know, the the the partnerships, the paints, the fact that we continue to have stockists in The UK. So although it's online, you can actually also go and see the product through our stockist network.

42:18 You know, I think those are the reasons why the momentum just continued, and we've been reinforcing what the brand stands for. Do you want to answer this one? Disciplined will m and a be after CTD and fire death? Yeah. So I think, certainly our priority focus is really embedding previously acquired businesses and, and and really optimizing them within the group. And and within the presentation, we touched on that. Think, know, obviously CTD has been challenging and FireDearth, Alex has just just explained. Clearly, m and a can have a a very important and critical role to developing and and growing the business, but also it's it brings challenges with with integration and management time, etcetera. So I think our view on this is very much balanced.

43:07 We we will continue to go after embedding previously acquired businesses, and we'll continue to monitor m and a opportunities on a case by case basis. Yeah. Very good. And and when you say how disciplined will m and a be, you know, obviously, discipline is absolutely key. On that well, just go to the very top. So we're sort of going through most of them. Let me have a look. Why is the share price so low? I mean, yeah, what is the market misunderstanding about your business? I don't know that the market misunderstands our business. Be good to get your feedback on how clear you think our strategy is. But you know, share prices moved, don't they? So I I haven't got a full answer for that. I think everybody on the call will have a view on how share prices move.

43:57 But clearly, it's about more than just the company. It's, you know, lots of other factors. And then what I've answered that, how are you leveraging AI for efficiency and innovation? Well, I think we've talked about that in marketing. You know, we've got we're we're very focused on both SEO, which is still very valid and a lot of our, you know, visits to our websites come from SEO still, sort of 45%. So that's good because it lowers the cost of pay per click because a lot of it's coming through organic search. But increasingly, clearly, we're also making sure that we rate very highly in AI discovery.

44:44 And as I said, the generative engine optimization and across both SEO and geo, we're benchmarking extremely well with the, highest share of voice and AI citations, in the market. And we've maintained that trend consistently over months. So and you know, what we see going forward is probably the balance increases towards GEO. And you know, but both will continue side by side. But we use AI in more than just search. We have AI in in, you know, the whole spectrum of marketing whether it's, you know, the way we do pay per click, it's in creative, it's in CRM.

45:29 And so it will continue to be a bigger and bigger sort of way in which we look at driving efficiency and effectiveness within TOPPS. This one, is TOPPS becoming more of a software data enabled trade platform rather than a traditional specialist? Goodness. Obviously impressed with the digital progress we've made. Wouldn't say I'm sorry. Yeah. This isn't published, is it? Okay. So Chris h says, is TOPPS TILES becoming more of a software, data enabled trade platform rather than a traditional specialist retailer? Mean, it's a great question. And I'm, you know, it's great that you see the progress that we've made on digital such that you would ask that question.

46:15 But it's very much about keeping the two in in balance. We are omnichannel, which means being really brilliant at digital and making sure we're using data to drive decision making and honing our offer to customers. As well as obviously thinking about digital and data in other processes that we have like end to end supply chain and so on. But it's about also, integrating it into an in store experience, which is more, let's say, traditional. But how do you use those insights that are coming from digital? How do you use data tools to make sure that we're creating the most modern, customer journey we can? So I think it's about both. It's it's it's about kind of seeing what opportunities there are integrating the two. So I don't think it's one thing or the other, Chris. I I think just to build on that as well, we did do recent customer research and the the role of the store in the buying journey still remains a a very high, you know, proportion and and requirement for the customer. So it it it highlights the importance of not just a fantastic digital proposition, but also the role of the the store within that and the ability to physically see and view the products.

47:41 Very good. There's a question here on would share buybacks ever become an attract attractive current valuation? I think, just on that management and the board will continue to review shareholder returns options, in line with the we have a capital allocations and and dividend policy. So, I just wanted to cover that. Very good. How much incremental this is from Tom W. How much incremental sales uplift are you expecting from the trade app and CRM investments? What early KPIs are encouraging? You know, another good question. So oh, I just lost it again. Oh, yeah. There there is. Yes. So so I mean, the trade app, we we do think is in the combination, you know, the power of that combination of having had CRM, but it's been going through email.

48:29 Obviously, we've seen very encouraging results. And the the things we look at, I mean, in the end, the outcome is is your trader growth increasing. But the leading indicators that go into that are ATV and trader acquisition, you know, frequency, those sorts of things. Now with the trade app that's gone live this month and the power to connect the two in a much more personal way, we do expect to see that ramp up in the second half. So I'm looking forward to sharing the outcome of that later in our year end results. And you know, the the fact that the app has more easy access to trade pay, not not in terms of approval, but in terms of, you know, application.

49:18 And trade pay customers as we said in the presentation spend five times as much as a regular customer. You know, you put all of those things together and you've got a multiplying effect. So, we're very excited about, second half from that perspective. Albeit, you know, we can all see that the kind of environment continues to be muted. But within it, I think we've got a new offer that, we're expecting to, boost, versus first half. What's this one? It appears to be outperforming. We've done that about five days. Nothing else. Can you discuss the online tile can you discuss the online tile market?

50:03 How does your competitive position here compare to that physical tile? I think we've answered that. So someone said, could you discuss the online tile market? How does your competitive position here compared to that physical tile retail? And I think really, we've answered that, haven't we? Which is we're neither one thing nor the other. We are absolutely committed to omnichannel and actually getting that balance right, You know, the right store network for traders who need convenience and pickup and, you know, homeowners who, you know, visit the stores we said, but will travel a little way for inspiration and advice. And getting that balance right with them, what they can do digitally and how much we can actually do digitally. That's really the the sweet spot. It's neither online only nor physical stores only.

50:55 So I think there's a question here. Is there any from Jeff. Is there any fashion trend in the European ceramic tile market away from large size models modules which would drive the market away from the trade bias more to its historic DIY roots? Gosh, that's a great question, Jeff. We are seeing a continued increase in extra large format. So that is definitely, you know, has been the trend in Europe. And actually, The UK is lagging behind more because of, you know, Victorian houses and you know, smaller properties, less modern properties, you know, fewer modern properties, I suppose, and more old properties. And so I think, you know, our penetration of extra large format is lagging behind Europe. And what we see is a definite bifurcation is sort of split between extra large format and then smaller tiles.

51:49 So they the middle size, you know, definitely reducing and much more of a growth in in extra large format and small smaller format. So I think we can finish that. Any time for one more question and then I'll hand it back to Lily cause I think we've literally answered everything. If you've obviously got any more questions, feel free to submit them after this and we'll we'll we'll get back to you. Oh my god. A biggie. What was this one? This is a long one. Okay. Can you provide a medium term view on commercial specification? Parkside appears to have stagnated in terms of revenue growth with other key sector players also finding the sector difficult. So I'm not it's a good it's a good question, because clearly the market is, you know, subdued and, our strategy, is to make sure we pivot to those sub segments within commercial and house building that appear to be more resilient.

52:56 So in commercial for instance, you know, investment, and leisure, and, you know, data, infrastructure, data centers, we see continued growth. And so our strategy is to make sure that we're pivoting to, those sub segments where we continue to see that that seem to be resilient versus those segments like, you know, airports for instance that might have pulled back for obvious reasons. To also tighten cost to make sure we've got very good cost control. And then to just make sure we're really leveraging the advantages of our value proposition, including a very resilient supply chain and making sure that the customers are sort of understanding the benefits of our value proposition.

53:46 So thanks for that question, a a j s. We've literally done all the questions. So thank you very much for your engagement, and I'm now gonna hand back to Lily. I hope you've enjoyed the interim update, and I look forward to seeing you at the end of the year. Thank you. That's great. Thank you for updating investors today. Can I please ask investors not to close this session as you'll now be automatically redirected to provide your feedback in order that the management team can better understand your views and expectations? This may take a few moments to complete, and I'm sure it'll be greatly valued by the company. On behalf of the management team, we'd like to thank you for attending today's presentation, and good morning to you all.