Jenoptik (Xetra:JEN) Q2 2026 Earnings Call

0:00 Ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the Jenoptik Conference Call regarding the Results of the First Half Year twenty twenty six. The conference will be recorded. At this time, all participants have been placed on a listen only mode. The floor will be opened for questions following the presentation. Let me now turn the floor over to your host, Doctor. Prisca Havernek. Good morning, everyone, and welcome to our call on the results for the first half year twenty twenty six. As in the past, I will lead you through the presentation, and then Andreas, our Head of Investor Relations, I will be open to your questions. But before we go into detail here, I would like to hand over to our new CEO, Dominik Doffmann. Thank you, Prisca, and good morning to everyone.

0:47 I'm very pleased to introduce myself to our investors and analysts on the occasion of our first year results release now that I've been officially on board since August 1. I've already had the chance to meet many Jenoptik colleagues at several different sites and even different continents over the past weeks, and I have gained some first good impressions of Jenoptik. What I saw during the first interactions impressed me. Firstly, I saw great people, highly dedicated to their business as well as highly motivated. So for me, that represents a strong basis. Secondly, I saw strong technologies.

1:32 Jenoptik's competencies, for example, in optics, are just impressive. And so is its ability to turn science or physics into solutions that truly add value to our customers. And finally, I'm personally convinced that there is a great relevance of photonics for many industries we serve, and its importance may even accelerate in the future. Or maybe in more simple terms, I'm convinced that photonics is an attractive industry with a lot of growth potential. So for me as a physicist, joining Jenoptik is a dream. For me as a manager, it means potential and ambition.

2:19 So what ultimately drives me is finding out what is possible, shaping and building the courage, and this is what we are striving towards together as the Jenoptik team. As I said earlier, I already had the chance meeting and talking to many people in the company. And for the next few weeks, my focus will be on listening, getting to know even more people, customers and to understand all of our business in full. Finally, I'd like to comment on a matter that has been mentioned in the news in the recent weeks or even months. You might know that we are currently undergoing some sort of a strategy process update, which is in full swing already, and we expect the Jenoptik Executive Board to be in a position to communicate key findings and outcomes towards the end of the year at the earliest. So please bear with me and my colleagues that we may not be able to answer questions relating to that matter in the very near future.

3:30 Thanks to you. And I'll now hand back to Prisca for the H1 results and also later the Q and A session. Thank you. Thank you, Dominik. Now let me start with an overview on Page four of our slide deck. First of all, we saw exceptionally strong order intake dynamics, particularly in our OEM businesses, to continue also in the second quarter, overall exceeding our expectation. The ramp up in the semi industry continues to be in full swing as far as we see it, but also order intake in our Biophotonics business unit was substantially up compared to last year for reasons I will address a little later in this call. I am pleased to report that revenues for the first half year were slightly up year on year for the first time in a while, driven by our semi business and SMS.

4:26 We are also pleased to report a strong improvement in our profitability in terms of EBITDA margin, noting, however, that profitability in the first half of twenty twenty five represented a modest comp. Free cash flow improved slightly year on year, reflecting besides higher profits, greater working capital needs in conjunction with our strong order intake. Now looking forward, our near term focus is clearly on our capacity expansion projects in our OEM businesses as well as maximizing output in the light of the significantly increased order backlog. Furthermore, as Dominik has already mentioned, we are currently reviewing our businesses, including strategy, with outcomes expected towards the end of this year at the earliest.

5:17 And finally, we continue to focus on and address our commercial opportunities besides semi, for example, in optical data communication, defense applications as well as our SMS business in The U. S. Regarding guidance, given what I've just been stating before, we now expect to reach the upper half of the initial guided revenue range and EBITDA margin range. Now moving on to Page five. As I've just mentioned, we saw particularly strong demand in semi and advanced manufacturing as well as in biophotonics continue in the second quarter, driving order intake on group level up by more than 50% year on year, overall exceeding our expectations.

6:04 Now starting with Semiconductor and Advanced Manufacturing, as you know, by far our biggest business unit. Order intake was driven by both our lithography business as well as continued strong customer activity in our semi inspection business. And given that we mentioned in our last call that Q1 benefited from a large annual order, I think it's not a surprise that Q2 was a little below the order intake levels recorded in Q1. Turning to our biophotonics business. Order intake was again very strong also in the second quarter. Therefore, H1 twenty twenty six, where we report a 45% increase year over year. This performance was, to a certain extent, driven by very high demand for our portfolio related to the defense end market in the first half year.

6:56 In addition, we also saw an overall positive order intake dynamics in the medtech and life science fields. Here, a lower momentum in the field of dentistry was more than compensated by a multiyear order in the low double digit million range that we received in the medtech space. Similarly, also as we discussed in first quarter, we believe that there also may have been certain early order effects in conjunction with growing geopolitical uncertainties since the start of this year. Also, let me remind you that we continue to believe that quarterly volatility of order intake in this business unit will remain high going forward, partly because of a special pattern in the defense industry as well as a certain volatility that you usually see while running a concentrated key account business model.

7:54 Now moving on to our Solutions businesses. For both metrology and production solutions as well as smart mobility solutions, order intake develops broadly as we were expecting, with both business units reporting low double digit order intake growth. So overall, as a consequence of these developments in demand, our H1 book to bill ratio for the group went up sharply to 1.4, and our order backlog grew substantially to around €825,000,000 Please follow me now to Page six to cover our revenue development. So whereas Q1 revenues were still slightly down year on year, as you can see on the left side of this slide, we returned to growth in the second quarter.

8:46 This leads to an overall modest 1% growth at the half year point. Excluding effects from currencies, especially relating to the euro dollar exchange rate fluctuations, revenue growth would have been up by close to 3%. At a segment level, semi advanced manufacturing revenue was up by around 10% year on year, driven both by our lithography as well as our semi inspection business. Digital Datacom was supportive, albeit on a lower level given the relative size of this business compared to the other two businesses. Now let's look at fire photonics. Here, in the last year, as you know, we benefited from a strong dental business. Given this base effect, the METZPV business did not quite reach the prior year's levels as we were expecting.

9:37 On the contrary, a strong development in defense partially compensated for this. However, overall revenues were still down by almost 5% year on year. For metrology and production solutions, revenue development primarily reflects the continued difficult market environment in the European automotive sector. Nonetheless, given the typical seasonality in The U. S. In the MPS business overall and considering the overall robust order intake in this business, we expect the second half of twenty twenty six to be better than the first half. Finally, revenue of our Smart Mobility Solutions business was up by almost 11%, driven by almost all regions.

10:28 On the next page, Page seven, that is, we look at our profit performance. As you can see on the left side of this slide, the group's EBITDA reached around €99,000,000 up by a little more than 25% compared to last year. This implies an improvement of our EBITDA margin by almost 400 bps, which is primarily driven by the following elements. Firstly, of course, we see the benefits of the overall lower cost base resulting from our cost reduction program executed last year. Secondly, we see our product mix improving, especially relating to the semi business.

11:13 And finally, please remember, the first quarter of twenty twenty five was influenced by onetime relocation costs relating to the move to our drastenfab, which we didn't have in the first half of twenty twenty six. On business unit level, based on the aspects mentioned before, our semi business recorded a very strong EBITDA margin of close to 32%. Despite a certain decline in revenues, as I have explained earlier, our biophotonics business continued to operate at a strong margin level of almost 22% in the first half. In the SMS business, we also saw a good move forward in terms of margins as top line growth was driving operational leverage, while in addition, R and D expenses were lower year on year.

12:03 NPS remained slightly loss making given its modest revenue development in the first half. And as I mentioned before, we believe the second half of the year performance may be better than what we have seen in the first six months. The other line, which includes our Corporate Center as well as ProtoMax, we saw an about €8,000,000 negative swing in the EBITDA year on year, largely relating to certain corporate project costs as well as provisions related to share based compensation, while ProtoMax is no relevant factor here. Now looking at key aspects of our P and L on Page eight. Gross margin was considerably up year on year, which was primarily influenced by a general lower cost base as well as a higher contribution by our semi business, as I have already alluded before.

12:55 On the functional expense side, we remained very disciplined. However, those expenses grew by 3.7% year on year as we had to recognize higher expenses for share based long term incentives, amongst other things. EBIT for the period and the review grew faster than EBITDA, given slightly lower depreciation and amortization. Therefore, EBIT was up by 56% year on year, while the respective margin jumped to 12.3% in the first half. Bottom line, our earnings per share reached €0.69 versus €0.42 in the prior year. Now turning to Page nine and looking at cash flow and balance sheet data.

13:44 Let me start with operating cash flow. The trend in the first half year is very much mirroring what we reported in the first quarter already, meaning that the strong order intake has led us to shift our priorities towards optimizing our ability to serve our customers. Hence, we've been taking on more working capital compared to the end of last year, reducing recycling and then reduced operating cash flow. Adding on to what I just said, you see that our working capital ratio was up at the end of the first half. And I would like to note that given the ongoing semi ramp, we expect this ratio to trend to slightly above twenty twenty five levels in the second half.

14:31 Free cash flow, however, was slightly up year on year due to low investing cash outflow. Please note that the first half of twenty twenty five was still including considerable cash outflows relating to our NUPVPV interest. On the remaining financial parameters, we have not seen any major changes compared to the end of last year, meaning that overall financial situation has remained very, very robust. And finally, please follow me to Page 11 to cover our specific guidance for 2026. So even though order intake is not a guidance KPI for us, as you know, I would like to make a comment here. It is clear that we are very pleased with the dynamics that we have seen in the first six months of this year.

15:23 However, I think it is fair to note that we received some orders surprisingly early, that is, they were originally expected to come later in this year. Therefore, we believe that the very strong order intake dynamics in the first six months may not necessarily continue in the upcoming two quarters. Now on basis of our performance year to date, we now expect our full year revenues to reach the upper half of our initial guidance range of single digit revenue growth. That means we are now expecting revenue growth of between 59% for this year. The prime driver is our semi and advanced manufacturing business, where we now expect to develop better than we expected earlier this year.

16:13 Also reflected in this updated guidance is the continuing weakness in our automotive related businesses, which is very relevant for our MPS business unit. In line with our updated revenue guidance, we also expect our EBITA margin to be in the upper half of the original guidance range of 19% to 21% on a full year basis. That is, we expect our EBITA margin to come in at between 2021% this year. We left our guidance on CapEx unchanged, meaning CapEx remains expected to be slightly below last year's level. Please be reminded, however, that amongst other things, the main capacity expansion project at the moment relates to our classical optics sites in Vienna, where we are working on expanding our high precision plenium production, which mainly relates to our semi inspection business.

17:11 And with that, I would like to thank you and hand back to our moderator to start the Q and A session. To ask a question, please press star nine and pound key on your telephone keypad. If you would like to withdraw your question, press star three and pound key. If you are connected online and listening via the web interface, please click The first question is from Michael Kuhn from the Deutsche Bank. Mr. Kuhn, your line is open now. Firstly, to an order intake.

18:04 You mentioned a bigger, let's call it, onetime order in biophotonics. And let's say, early orders in semi, would there be anything in the semi space which you would regard like a onetime bulk order? Or is it just early ordering, just to get a bit of better idea here? Thank you for your question, Michael. Yes, let me reiterate. We have received a large order in Q2 in the biophotonic space relating to our medtech business. The remarks regarding pull forward orders is less relating to the semi space. It's actually more relating to the biophotonic space, in particular, both, I would say, in the defense as well as in the Life Science and MedTech area.

18:58 Okay. So semi is kind of the, let's call it, run rate that you would see for now? I think what we have to keep in mind there is that we have had an exceptional annual order that we have already pointed out in Q1, yes, as you remember. And while I do not see any particular move forward of orders, I think let me remind you of what general dynamics we have also discussed in our Q1 call, meaning that in a semi ramp up, of course, it could also be that some customers are putting in orders that are maybe mainly there to secure capacity because as we know, in a ramp up phase, that is a key criteria.

19:48 But don't interpret this as a specific pull forward of orders in semi from the first from the second half into the first half. That remark was mainly meant for the biophotonics business. Okay. That's very helpful. Then on orders, again, if I look at the 60% to 65% conversion of the backlog that you're targeting that would leave, let's say, roughly €100,000,000 of orders still missing to get to the sales target. What visibility do you have by now? And let's say, in which segments you would still need to collect orders turning into sales quickly to deliver on targets?

20:36 Yes. Thank you for your question, Michael. Now I mean, with three above €800,000,000 backlog, we have a very, very strong backlog to execute both for the first half, but then, of course, also into 2027, as you know, right? So I think to your question, the answer lies in the on the one hand, on the mix, on the other hand, also in the differences between our businesses in the Solutions business and the OEM businesses. As you know, the Solutions businesses tend to have shorter, I would say, lead times for orders. So as we have pointed out, for example, in the MPS business during the course of last year, and that, to a large extent, may also be true for this year, that we can still get orders in that then convert into sales till this year as it's a different cash cycle than we, for example, have in our Optics business, yes?

21:36 And that explains, obviously, the gap that you may see from converting the backlog into revenue to the depends on where you really sit yourself in the guidance range. Understood. Then absolutely, it does. Last one on strategy and having listened to the introductory remarks. So strategic review taking place, no, let's say, findings to be announced before year end and you said earliest year end. So that would make me think a CMD at some point over the course of next year. Is that the right way to think about it?

22:24 Yes. Let me cover that for Dominic for now. We have said that at the earliest, at the end of this year, and obviously, at this point, we cannot specify this any further. We are very aware of the requirements of our of the capital markets to get information. But of course, also please allow for us as the new executive team to go through our proper processes. So I can't give you a more specified answer than what we have already said in the call earlier. Thank you. The next question is from Maisa Keskes from ODDO BHF.

23:09 Your line is open now. Good morning, everyone. Thank you for taking my question. I will ask regarding Prodromax. So could you provide more colors on the business? It appears that the business saw some order intake in Q2 as well. Should we view this as an early sign that the situation is improving? Or it's still early to call a sustained positive trend? Thank you for your question, Maestro. So I think it is a similar answer that I have given you on the Q1 call, and that is it is encouraging, you're fully right, that we see an uptick of orders also in Q2 after also an uptick of orders in Q1.

23:58 Bear in mind that we have seen before that four to six quarters with very, very subdued order development. However, I wouldn't call this a trend yet. The geopolitical and economic situation for the end market in North America has not changed in any substance that I'm aware of. So I would while I'm encouraged by the trajectory we've seen in Q2, I think it's too early to call this a trend. And on our strategic intent, maybe also preempting that question, nothing has changed on the strategic attempt intent to divest this business over the course of time.

24:45 The next question is from Martin Jungfleisch from BNP Paribas. Mr. Jung Fleisch, please. Yes. Hi, good morning. Maybe to start, just on demand in the semi space. If you can just talk about briefly how your discussions with your main litho and inspection customers have developed over the last few weeks? Are they signaling increasing demand going into 2027? Are they asking for more capacity? Are they worried about not having enough supply? And then also, I guess, if you would say that visibility has extended into 2027? That's the first question. Thank you, Martin, for your question. And I'll definitely try to give you a little bit more color around the dynamics of the demand in semi.

25:35 Now I think maybe starting with the obvious, you've seen in this year that the lithography business has recorded very strong orders. And of course, it's also a revenue driver also in the first half. And know that we have gone through the supply chain, let's say, adjustments that we went through 2025, and we now expect to grow a little lithography business. So nothing changed there. If you ask me change in order dynamic or, let's say, demand between Q1 and Q2, I would say it's broadly the same dynamic that we've been seeing since early of the year. And on your question about visibility, I think we are in the semi business.

26:25 Keep that in mind, right? Things, as we have seen, can change. And I cannot give you any more flavor onto more or less visibility into the next coming quarters on the cellography business. Of course, maybe let me finish with that. Overall, of course, we see this as a proof point that the semi ramp up is in full swing. I also mentioned that early in the call. And we will support our customers and focus on the ability to deliver those. No, that makes sense. And then I guess, are customers increasingly worried about supply? I mean, you mentioned some capacity topics in your prepared remarks. And can you maybe discuss also on capacities, how does that look like today in inspection and litho, both physically, the space, but also on head count?

27:18 Yes. So let me remind you. As I've also mentioned earlier in this call, we have specified our guidance to the upper half and have explicitly mentioned that this is, amongst other things, based on a better than expected performance in the semi business. So that is clearly one large driver of the specified guidance in the upper range. So that means we expect, I would say, a higher growth in our semi outputs in this year and, of course, also a step up implied into the second half of this year. So that means we, of course, have capacities. As you know, we have a broad production footprint.

28:06 And as you know, capacity and loading and also mix is not the same across the system. So we are doing our best to, obviously, balance the demand as best as we can. And are adding capacities in the terms of people and machinery where needed. Having said that, a ramp up in semi is always a team effort between the customers, our suppliers and our supply chain. And I think we have a good momentum going there basically to cater to that demand. Okay. Cool. And then maybe my final question is really on Photonics. If you can just talk about your micro lens arrays a bit. I mean, must be quite strong given what's happening in the data center space.

28:51 Can you just provide some color how this business has performed in H1? And also on the capacity points, if you have enough capacity to cater for demand in the next one or two years? And then also in terms of customers, I mean, you talk about the number of customers you have in this business? And if you have seen additional customers actually coming to you and asking for products? Yes. Just that I get that right, you were referring to the micro lens arrays that we that relate to our Optical Data Communications business, correct? Right. Yes. Okay. Thank you for the clarification. Yes. What I would reiterate also what we have discussed, given more a bit more flavor, is that we see a growth in demand in that business.

29:36 We are also seeing a growth in revenues, as I've mentioned that in my remarks, obviously, on a significantly smaller base, but it is supportive. And we will be growing. On any other and we cater to multiple customers. So there is obviously not one customer, but we have a array of customers there. On any more longer term or strategic considerations with that regarding that business, I would ask you to allow us to do our strategy update process and then potentially communicate more when we have the time at, let's say, at the Capital Markets Day or something like Next question is from Olivier Calve from UBS.

30:34 Yes. Hi, Prisca. Welcome, Dominik. Just a couple of follow ups left. Maybe firstly on the order intake. So should we understand your comments in expect semis order intake to remain at this level of, let's call it, 170,000,000,180,000,000 seen in Q1 and Q2? Appreciate the low double digit sort of one off in Q1. That would be the first question. And then if you could comment on your current utilization levels in the inspection and lithography operations, respectively, that would be also helpful. And if you could comment I think you said so you expect to convert 60% to 65% of your backlog at group level into sales in full year 2026. Just wanted to confirm if this was also the case for your semis backlog? That would be question sort of two and three. Thanks.

31:41 Then maybe let me start with the last question first. So the as I said before, we have a strong backlog, in particular, in the semi space, given the order intake that you've seen. So the name of the game for the upcoming quarters, particularly in the OEM businesses, is execution and output. So that is, of course, next to the mix and the loading in the plants, what determines the end of the year and not so much any, let's say, major gaps in backlog, yes? In the Solutions businesses, we have a different business dynamic. And as I answered the question before, we, as normal, have there, of course, a shorter time to convert orders into revenue.

32:29 So that's what it relates So on the utilization levels, as I said before, I mean, we have different loading levels across our factory footprint. And what we are doing is adding machines and people for the near term. You'll also see that basically coming into the system into the second half of the year as we are sort of continuing our ramp up. You know that we have a fairly new factory in Dresden, right? So we know that and you remember that we were ramping it a little bit slower than we were initially anticipating when we came online with the factory beginning last year. So now we are, of course, adding also to the ramp curve they are interested in. We have, I would say, in the classical optics in Vienna, as you know, we have already made a small capacity expansion at the beginning of this year. And as I've also alluded, we are working on additional capacity for the classical optics. And by the way, this caters both to inspection and lithography customers here in GINA that's underway.

33:41 So And that can I ask just on that, the timing of the expansion? So as you we have had an additional facility coming online in the beginning of this year. And I would expect any additional facilities not to be affecting the next couple of quarters. This will take a little bit of time until we have these facilities ready. And then on the order intake level in the semis in the second half? Yes. I know I think I've cautioned in the prepared remarks that, obviously, with the record level that you see at the moment in semi, we cannot necessarily expect the same record exceptional levels. That doesn't mean that we don't expect good demand in semi for the upcoming quarters as a result of the ongoing semi ramp in the industry.

34:47 Next question is from Lasse Stuben from Berenberg. Your question please. Hi, good morning. Could you just give a bit more color on that multiyear order in medtech just to get a flavor of kind of what that is and sort of which end market we're looking at here? The second question would be on the margin level in semicon, very strong or in advanced manufacturing, very strong in Q2. I guess not that surprising given the uptick in revenues, but just wondering what the if there's any key drivers there, be it volume or mix or a combination of both? And then finally, on NPS, if you could touch on this briefly. Revenues were quite soft, as you mentioned, in the quarter, but then orders were actually slightly better. So just wondering sort of what the key drivers are here and if that kind of EUR 40,000,000 run rate in the quarter of revenues is what we should be expecting for the coming quarters or maybe a slight uptick given the increase in orders in Q2?

35:53 Yes. Yes, of course, Lasse. Thank you for your question. Let me start with the MPS question. I think the main message here from my side is that we expect a better H2 compared to a modest H1, yes? And that is driven by both all lines of businesses there, so both Optical Testing as well as the Automotive related businesses. That is true for that. And also, historically, if you look at the we to see a certain seasonality in that business towards the third and even the fourth quarter. So I expect a second a better second half there. Having said that, you've also seen in my remarks that we still see, I would say, a deterioration of the demand situation in automotive compared to what our expectations were when we started the year, and we've also factored that into our updated or specified guidance.

36:56 The order intake situation is actually quite encouraging. And that's basically, it's, of course, one of the reasons why I am expecting a stronger second half than the first half across the NPS. On the on your question on the large annual order in the biopotonic business, I'm a bit in a bind here, I'm afraid. You know that we have a concentrated key account strategy with key account customers. So what I can tell you is it is in the medtech space, not in the Life Science space, and it's not in the dental space. But I am afraid I cannot give you more flavor on that. I hope that helps anyway. And then on margin level in semi, you're right, and we've seen a nice margin accretion in semi.

37:47 As we have also expected and as we've also previously alluded to, if SEMI is firing on all cylinders, obviously, we can also land a tad above the, let's say, the 30 range that we roundabout have sort of put out there. So I'm confident that the good development that we've seen in the first half, we will also continue to see in the second half. Bear in mind, however, that, of course, certain lag effect we will see in factor costs. For example, the collective agreement in Germany that kicked in, in Q2 and also certain other factor costs, including, obviously, additional FTEs that we'll see coming online over the next couple of quarters.

38:35 But overall, I would say happy with the profitability development and the margin development in semi. I hope that helps answer your question. Very good. Thanks very much. The next question is from Craig Abbott from Kepler Cheuvreux. Your line is now open. Yes. Hi, good morning, Jessica. Good morning, everyone. Yes, three remaining questions on my side. Actually, had earlier a number of questions about the ramp up of capacity at the micro optics plant in Dresden, but a lot of that's been answered. I just want to do a quick follow-up there because we're seeing quite significant capacity increases by other equipment semi equipment suppliers.

39:21 I mean, we're talking about magnitude of twenty five, thirty percent quarter on quarter sometimes. And I just wanna one last question on that front is, so you're are you able to find the headcount that you need, the FTEs that you need, particularly with a view to 27? We all know how dynamic the WFE CapEx forecast forecast for next year are. And also, your supply chain is able to, you know, feel comfortable that your supply chain is gonna be able to keep pace in terms of expanding their capacities as well. That would be the first question. The second question, please. Yeah. Just to remind us again in your both in lithography well, particularly, probably not lithography, but in the inspection side, is your not supplying in any way to Chinese semi equipment OEMs?

40:10 And if not, is this an issue the company is trying to address? Does could you maybe share with us your chances there being able to become part of that ecosystem? And and thirdly and thirdly the defense the defense mix, I suppose demand trends remain strong. But if you could give us some color on how you see them continuing in H2 and into 2027, we'd appreciate it. Thank you for your questions. Maybe I'll start with the semi first on the FTE for Dresden. So I can begin or can we, in general, find enough people at this point? And I would say the general answer is yes. Yes, of course, skilled operators are not always easy to find. We have our apprenticeship program, which, of course, we are also stepping up.

41:05 So by and large, I would say we have an okay labor situation where we're able to staff the positions that we require. On your question or your sub question on the supply chain. Now I mean the broad expectation is that our supply chain continues to ramp up step basically in lockstep with us, right? That's the general aim. And for now, I would also say that we are not tangibly constrained anywhere in the supply chain. But of course, given the high level of order dynamics that we are seeing, there may be certain risks. And we are certainly and the teams there are certainly working on mitigating those, Yes? But for now, I see us ramping up basically in lockstep with our supply chain for the major part.

42:00 I think then you had a question on, if I hope I got it right, about inspection sales into potentially China. Did I get that correct? Yes. Directly to the Chinese semi equipment OEMs, not indirectly by the Western OEMs. Yes, yes, yes. Okay. Thank you for clarifying, Craig. So by and large, we do not sell to Chinese suppliers overall in our semi business. That's a strategic decision that we made a couple of years ago. And for now, the decision is intact. That's across our semi business, I should say. And then last question, defense optics, if I got that correctly. That's correct. Yes. Yes.

42:48 Thank you, Craig. So I mean, defense has been strong. We've seen that, right? And I don't you know, having said that defense orders tend to be, let's say, sometimes concentrated and sometimes multiyear in nature, I do not anticipate, let's say I would say I would expect over the short to medium term, the defense optics business to grow. Obviously, from a revenue point of view, that's clear. But also from an order intake dynamic, what I would say is don't extrapolate the biophotonics order intake for the future because, as I said, there's various factors to keep in mind there. But overall, I would say fairly bullish on the defense dynamics.

43:41 I hope that it gives you some flavor. Gentlemen, at the moment, there seem to be no further questions. Maybe let me quickly repeat the star nine and pound key on your telephone keypad. If you are connected online and listening via the web interface, please click the telephone handset button and then the raised hand icon. There is one more question from Martin Jungfleisch from BNP Paribas. Maybe if I can add two, if there's time.

44:26 First one is on Trioptics. Can you talk about what the demand trends you're seeing in ARV are? I mean Meta has launched the Ray Ban glasses. I think Google is coming with new smart glasses as well. So it seems like the market has picked up a bit there. And I know the business was initially hinging a bit on an uptick in ARVR. So maybe if you can talk about if you have seen an inflection point there already. Thank you for your question, Martin. So regarding our business in TreOptik, what I would reiterate is a little bit what I said in Q1. We do see in the industry broadly more dynamic, which is, I would think, considered a positive. But we do anticipate more major order intake from ARVR in the business in the very near future.

45:17 But our project is full, and we are executing on a variety of projects in that space, which, of course, gives us a nice dynamic overall. The optical testing equipment, of course, that's sort of the legacy TriOfix business, is doing well, I would say, in particular, the optical testing space and inspection space. So that would say there is a positive I would say the commentary we provided earlier this year remain intact. Okay. Sounds good. And then just secondly, on pricing. There are some semi suppliers that have raised prices over the last couple of months to offset input costs. And can you talk about potentially some price increases in some of your classical businesses and semis? And if these are offsetting input costs and if input costs are even going up for you? Yes.

46:17 Yes. Martin, I understand your interest. However, given the very concentrated nature of our business in semi, as you know, I'm afraid I'll be a little, let's say, vague in the color I can give. So what I can assure you is that we have very constructive conversations with all of these customers, of course, depending a little bit also on the demand situation. And that I reiterate what I said around the good profitability we've seen in the semi business overall. But I'm afraid I cannot go into any of the commercial details with this customer base here. There are no further questions in the queue.

47:03 So I would like to close the Q and A session now and turn the floor back over to your host, Doctor. Pascal Hafmannink. Thank you very much. And let me close the call with reiterating our key messages. We delivered a solid Q2. The ramp up in semi is in full swing, and we see strong customer activity in our biophotonics business, although H1 should not be extrapolated into H2. We returned to profitable growth in H1, and our near term focus is on added capacities and our ability to deliver. We have specified our guidance in the upper half of our range. And with that, I thank you for attending our call, and I look forward to seeing many of you in the road together with Dominique over the next coming weeks. Thank you very much.