Persimmon (LSE:PSN) — Full Year Results

0:01 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the PERSIMMON PLC Full Year Results Investor Presentation. Questions are encouraged. They can be submitted at any time via the Q and A tab that's just situated on the right hand corner of your screen. Please just simply type in your questions and press send. The company may not be in a position to answer every question it receives during the meeting itself. However, the company can review all questions submitted today and will publish those responses where it's appropriate to do so on the Investor Meet company platform.

0:26 Before we begin, we would just like to submit the following poll. And if you could give that your kind attention, I'm sure the company would be most grateful. And I would now like to hand you over to CFO, Andrew Duxbury. Andrew, good morning, sir. Good morning. Thank you very much, and thank you, everybody, for joining us today for our full year results update. We are really pleased with our performance in 2025. We delivered double digit growth across the business, and that's building on and accelerating the recovery that began in 2024. And we're building a stronger business to deliver further growth in the future. So our strategy is that to deliver more homes, and we're finding that more customers are choosing our well built, affordably priced, and attractively located homes.

1:12 So in 2025, we grew completions. We grew average selling price. We grew sales rates excluding bulk. We increased our returns and our profits. Our forward order book and our land bank are both up year on year, and our exposure to our cladding remediation work is reduced. Our strategy of carefully choosing where to build, what to build, and how to build it is being successfully executed across the business, and it's delivering strong results.

1:50 As you can see, we delivered a strong performance last year. Underlying PBT was up 13% to £446,000,000. This builds on the growth that we delivered in 2024. And over two years, completions are up 20% and PBT is up 24%. Our underlying EPS is up 9% to a 100.7 p. Our sales outlets at the December 31 were 277. That's up 3%. Our sales rate was 0.7 per sales per outlet per week, and excluding bulk was 0.59, which is up point which is up 4%. The growth in our outlets and our sales rate drove completions up 12% to 11,905.

2:36 And within that, we delivered 1,758 bulk completions. That's 21% higher year on year. And I'm really delighted we retained our five star status for the fourth consecutive year. Our owned and controlled land bank grew 3% to 84,879 plots, and our total forward order book, this is at the March 1, is up 6% to 1,800,000,000 with our private order book up 9%. So let me just now spend a bit of time on the details behind those numbers for last year. Oops.

3:14 Of the total new homes delivered, 9,830 were private. That's 8% higher than last year, and this reflects our strong sales rates and increased number of outlets. Private completions included 1,758 bulk sales, and that's 21% higher than last year as we continue to engage strategically with this sector. Reservations in the built to rent sector slowed in q four, as you know, but that didn't affect last year's delivery. Open market sales grew in both the PERSIMMON and Charles Church brands. 32% of our private sales were to first time buyers, and that is an important market for us, particularly for our core PERSIMMON brand. Our relaunch Charles Church brand increased 16%, and that was in line with our plans to double it over time.

4:06 And our partnerships output grew very strongly indeed. That was up 31% to over 2,000 units or 17% of total completions. So let me reiterate really importantly, all elements of the business grew their volume in 2025, and that's helping us to drive asset turn and increase our return on equity. The blended ASP on completions in the period was up 4%, and private ASP increased 5% even allowing for the increase in bulk sales. Our brands

4:58 Our balance sheet is a platform that allows us to invest for future growth. And to add further to our growth opportunity, we announced last week an increase to our banking facilities with a two year £250,000,000 term loan and a £50,000,000 increase to our RCF taking that to £750,000,000 in total. This extra facility allows us to take full advantage of a land market at what we consider to be the right point in the cycle and allows us to invest in the WIP needed to grow our outlet base and to drive more volume. And as a result of choosing to invest at this point in the cycle, we may have some small gearing at the end of twenty twenty six, but we'll continue to manage the balance sheet prudently and keep ample headroom at all times.

5:47 In the table on the slide, you can see land and whip increased 535,000,000, and we've invested in more land than we've utilized. We've also increased our work in progress, and that gave us a stronger opening position coming into 2026. We held £200,000,000 of PX stock at the end of the year. As an important sales tool, and we're focused on recycling this back into cash quickly. Land creditors increased £200,000,000. That reflects the increased investment in land, and it shows that we can agree good payment terms in the land market. And net cash at the year end was a £117,000,000, which together with our land creditors, our adjusted gearing is about 14%. Our building safety remediation provision, that stands at £226,000,000.

6:36 It's down in the period given the progress that we've made. This is important work, and it's very complicated work. And we are now on-site or complete at 77% of developments, and we have tendered over 90% of developments. So we're continuing to make progress on our building remediation work. Net assets are up 3% in the year and net net assets per share of 31% 31 p higher than this time last year. And I'm really, really pleased that return on average capital employed increased. It's up 60 bps compared to this time last year. So this brings me on to our cash flow.

7:19 This cash bridge on the slide demonstrates some really important points about the quality of our business. You can see the cash inflow from operations was £488,000,000. That's 16% more than 2024. And to continue to grow the business, we've and to drive quality, we've invested £208,000,000 more in work in progress, and that's infrastructure and building on new and existing sites.

7:48 Other working capital movements includes £58,000,000 more PX, as I just spoke about a moment ago. And we spent a £109,000,000 on interest and tax and £38,000,000 on capital expenditure. And that includes IT improvements and includes an automated line in our space for timber frame factory. And we had a net inflow of £65,000,000 from acquisitions and disposals. So our free cash generation before capital returns, before our building remediation, and our net investment into land was £250,000,000. And to the right hand side is our capital allocation choice. We're prioritizing our building remediation program, and we're paying a sustainable dividend.

8:34 As we look to complete the remediation work over the next couple of years, so that element of spending effectively comes back into free cash flow. But you can see that after remediation and dividends, we were pretty well cash neutral. And what this shows is that we're operating a sustainable business model, and we're paying a sustainable dividend, which is funded by our operations.

8:58 And if we adopted a replenishment only strategy on land, we'd have essentially maintained our cash position in the year at £256,000,000. But given the return on capital we can achieve, we're looking to generate value through investing in more land. So last year, our net investment into land was a £139,000,000. And so we ended the year with a positive cash balance, you can see on the right hand side, of a £117,000,000. So let me just talk a bit more detail about capital allocation.

9:34 The structure of our capital allocation policy is unchanged, and it is proving successful. We're maintaining a strong balance sheet while prioritizing dealing with our building remediation works this year and next year.

9:47 And secondly, we're continuing to invest in the business to deliver our organic growth objectives, and there continues to be opportunity to drive shareholder value by investing in growth and by doing so in a disciplined way that allows us to also increase asset turn and drive return on equity.

10:07 And we're paying a sustainable dividend, well covered by profits, and we declared a final dividend this year of 40 p in line with last year, and that brings the full year dividend up to 60 p. We're remaining prudently geared even after land creditors with a balance sheet that provides strength and flexibility through the cycle. And in the coming years, as the group works through our building safety remediation program, cash generation will improve, and that will give us more options in terms of investment and returns to shareholders.

10:41 So now let me remind you of our strategy. This is a slide that you might have seen before. It summarizes where we're allocating our capital across the business while also striving to maintain a robust and a well supported balance sheet.

10:59 We've taken some tough strategic decisions to reposition the business, and that's allowed us to invest more in land, in our brands, in our factories, and our quality to drive a new phase of growth, and this strategy is delivering as you saw in the numbers at the start of the presentation.

11:18 So the combination of a clear strategy and a relentless focus on its delivery and execution by our excellent teams up and down the country is securing our growth and returns. So I'm now gonna spend a little bit of time updating you on each of these five strategic areas. And, of course, I'll take questions on these later as appropriate.

11:43 So land. Our disciplined investment into quality land is increasing our short term and our strategic land banks with good embedded margins. When combined with our planning success, we're converting our land into more active sites, and we're on track for 300 outlets over the course of the next couple of years.

12:03 And we've got good visibility on sites that are going to drive growth and margin improvement into the medium term. On brands, we've enhanced all three of our brands, and each has a very clear market position, a distinct customer proposition, and an efficient model of delivery. And all three brands grew in 2025.

12:29 They're diversified and complementary brands, and so they'll also drive future growth and unlock new markets and serve new customers. On quality, I'm really pleased that we've not compromised our quality and our service excellence whilst delivering a step change, remember, 12% increase in completions.

12:49 And this is a really important in the current market and as we're looking to grow further, that it's really important that we continue to focus on maintaining this improvement in quality. Vertical integration. The the significant investment that we've made in our factories is making a real difference to our delivery in terms of the increased output, efficiency, and quality we can get. And this includes a new automated line in our timber frame factory that we input in in 2025. We put in an automated roof truss line, and this year, we're going to increase the capacity in our in house brick factory.

13:28 Our rollout of digital management systems across the group is also enhancing our control of build programs and improving cost efficiencies.

13:37 And then as I've said, our carefully managed balance sheet has allowed us to maintain disciplined investment at the right point in the cycle whilst also supporting returns to shareholders. So to summarize, our disciplined investment and our self help is building more routes to more markets, that's helping us to build more homes and to drive returns. So I'm just gonna give a little bit more insight into one of these five areas, which is branding.

14:11 So I've said a couple of times, all three of these brands grew in 2025, and I'm really pleased by that. But I'm also excited by the opportunity for future growth that these brands present.

14:24 All three brands have a clear, compelling, and distinctive position in their market, and we've enhanced their customer proposition and efficiency of their delivery in the year. So PERSIMMON remains our core brand, and that will always deliver the majority of our homes. It's well known for its affordability and good value, and we've enhanced its customer appeal with improved design, improved placemaking, and marketing.

14:49 And we've enhanced its already strong build efficiency with further standardization, and we've increased the use of our own factory made products. Charles Church delivery has been particularly strong. We relaunched this value orientated premium product earlier in 2025, and that relaunch has really resonated with customers. Our new house types and bespoke marketing are really appealing to an aspirational market, and it's broadening our access to new markets, whether that be new customers or new land opportunities.

15:25 And by dual flagging sites, we're seeing improved sales as each brand serves a complementary market. So we're seeing what we call the halo effect in some cases where customers are attracted to us by one brand, but they end up buying on the other, which is another multi brand benefit.

15:43 And Westbury also took a giant leap forward in 2025 as the figures on the slide show. This essentially is a b to b brand and is increasingly a trusted partner in a growing segment. Our improved reputation and our national footprint makes us an increasingly attractive partner, and our core PSNIMMON product is obviously very well suited to the build to rent market and the affordable housing market requirements. So with these three brands complementing each other, opening new opportunities, that means that we're building more routes to more markets to deliver more homes and growing returns. So let me bring this to life for you. This picture on the slide are at Toaster near Northampton, and this is an excellent site with both PERSIMMON and Charles Church outlets.

16:37 And the pictures demonstrate the appeal and the quality of both the PERSIMMON and the Charles Church homes. The prices also show that they're targeting distinct and complementary markets with a clear difference in the average selling price and, hence, the customer proposition. We're finding that in the right location, the combination of both brands on a site drives more customer interest and drives the halo effect that I talked about. And the recent launch at Toaster was one of the most successful that we've had, but this is just one example from across the country. So how is all of this investment translating into current trading? Well, as of the March 1, our forward order book was up 6% at £1,800,000,000, and our private forward order book up 9% at £1,250,000,000.

17:31 In the first nine weeks of the year, we sold an average of 199 houses per week. That's 11% higher than 2025. And with a net sales per outlet per week of naught point 7 three, that's 9% higher again than the same period in 2025. Excluding books, units we've sold on average a 167 houses per week, that's 6% higher than last year with a net sales rate of 0.61. And pricing has been robust with average selling prices up 6% overall and up 6% in the private forward order book, although there is a mix effect within that. And incentives are running at around 5% consistent with last year. I think this represents a really good start to the year. Now, clearly, these numbers are stated before the conflict in The Middle East started.

18:23 They show how the market has been improving. And in that context, I'll now turn to our outlook. So the business is well positioned. I said at the beginning of my presentation that self help is driving growth and that disciplined investment is reinforcing that growth trajectory. But there are, of course, some uncertainties. So even before events in The Middle East, the macro picture was mixed. Planning reforms that governments introduced are very supportive, and they should support further outlet openings. But the ref reforms full impact is still yet to be felt. Mortgage availability has been improving. Real real wage growth alongside higher loan to value lending has improved affordability, and we're finding that mortgage qualification rates have improved despite overall mortgage approvals remaining subdued in the market.

19:18 But geopolitical uncertainty is adding more risk. In the short term, the most important risk is to any changes in customer sentiment, but so far this year, sales have been good, and we haven't seen any change. The longer the tension or the conflict persists, the greater there is risk to increasing build or cost inflation. But on both sales and build costs, we do have some some helpful mitigations in place for 2026. So our plans for growth in private sales are not dependent on lower mortgage rates or on a scheme like Help to Buy. We find customers still want to get on with their lives and buy houses, and we are offering a range of very attractive products that are competitively priced, and they offer excellent value.

20:05 And the sales in the first few weeks of the year have been really encouraging, as you saw, and that includes the last two weeks. Our housing association and our build to rent partners have their funding largely secured, and we're well progressed for this year's delivery. And on build, we entered this year with an improved forward build position and a significant portion of this year's build program already contracted. Alongside significant proportion of key products provided by our own factories, this provides some assurance on cost. And we've contacted in the last two weeks all of our major suppliers to understand how they are mitigating risk. And with fuel hedging, alternative shipping routes, and high stock levels already in place, there is some short term resilience, but clearly, the risks increase the longer that the conflict goes on.

20:58 And, of course, we'll continue to monitor any impacts and reduce the risk where we can. As I've been through, as of today, current trading is positive. The book of investor sales is building. We've got good visibility for 2026, and our total forward order book is up with private sales up 9% so far this year. So taking all this together, we think if the impact of the conflict with Iran is short, we anticipate further growth in 2026 to between twelve and twelve and a half thousand units and with margin progression similar to last year. The growth that we're delivering is translating into tangible returns, and it's giving us confidence that our medium term targets that I set out earlier are achievable.

21:46 As I've said, we're building more routes to more markets to deliver more homes and increasing returns. And on that note, I'll pause. I'm happy to take any questions. Thanks, Andrew. Just to remind people, if anybody would like to ask a question, please feel free just to type it in the chat box in in in the in the window. We've got a couple of questions here on land, Andrew, so maybe we just start with that. The first one is, are there any plans to dispose of parts of the land bank? And how does the size ratio to turnover and value of the land bank compare with other developers, please? Well, we are looking to and and through last year, net invested into our land bank. So we think it's a good opportunity to to to buy land in the current market. There are a number of our peer group who are less active. We saw good opportunities in the land market last year, and and we brought those through. So we think there's an opportunity to invest in land and to drive growth and to drive shareholder returns as a result. So, of course, it'll always be parcels of land that we sell, whether you're on a large site, selling a a parcel off or otherwise. But but net net, we're looking to invest in land at the in in the current market.

23:02 And I think just following on from that, so if you take the PERSIMMON land bank, what proportion of the land bank has practical potential for development over the course of the next five years? Well, within the land bank, the overall owned and controlled land bank is just shy of 85,000 units. And of that, 40,000 units have got are owned with detailed planning. So that's about obviously, about half of our owned and controlled land bank has got detailed planning, which obviously is is what we need to to drive, you know, delivery in in in in this year and next year. Okay. And just looking then at sort of more of the political side of things, there's a couple of questions here that are asking what the conversations with government have been like around sort of potential for a new help to buy scheme.

23:54 How how have the conversations been, and is there any chance that we might see something coming through in the next budget? So we have active conversations both through industry bodies like the HPF, but also directly with government ourselves on the importance of, you know, all the opportunity for government to introduce something like a Helps Buy. And so as I said on the presentation, you know, we think the market has been improving. Real wage growth, mortgage availability, you know, have been improving. But notwithstanding that, we think there's opportunity to, you know, that helps by can really increase the speed of delivery. The question of whether that will come through as a policy, I'm afraid, is something which is really I mean, it's very, very hard to answer. I would say that our discussions have been, you know, quite active, you know, this year. You know?

24:46 But, ultimately, there you know, I don't think there is a, you know, a decision having been made. So what I would say is two things. One is, PERSIMMON does not we don't rely on Help to Buy. It's not part of our core business planning. So in other words, we set the business to grow without Help to Buy. But by the same token, I think PERSIMMON would be one of the the the the key beneficiaries because of our price point, because of our customer base. And the way that we're growing the business is not would not be there'd be no regrets if there was a Help to Buy product introduced, and I think we would stand to benefit from such a product. But we have to wait and see whether the government decides to to do something or not. Thanks, Andrew. And just sort of sticking with government, there's a question here. It says the government seem to be announcing lots of partnerships and schemes. To what extent do you change your strategy to utilize them?

25:39 Well, the government is introducing you know, has introduced quite a lot of change. So on the planning side, obviously, in planning reforms, which are encouraging, they've introduced the new homes accelerator program. In fact, we fed back to government how we thought they could improve that program, and but we are actually engaged in some of our schemes into that new homes accelerator program. Clearly, the government talks a lot about the affordable housing program, which is a a £39,000,000,000 program over over ten years. And we will be you know, we we we look at that, but, clearly, that is for additional affordable housing rather than the section one zero six housing, which is predominantly what we deliver. It's our partnerships business. But, again, the government's also done some good, you know, things in terms of things like rent conversions, which are giving our housing association partners a little bit more financial certainty, and that's helping with the funding coming into the affordable housing that we that we deal with as well. So, yeah, we are actively engaged and look at, you know, look at all all government schemes very closely as you as you'd expect us to do.

26:43 Thank you. And then I've got three questions here, which are all sort of linked to Iran and sort of the outlook. The first one is, last week, was mentioned despite the Iran war, early March saw increased sales. As the war continues, is this now starting to change? And how will you further mitigate impact? I. E, would you consider buybacks or direct share purchases if if the share price continues to deteriorate further? Well, I think so two slightly separate questions. So I think on customer demand, you know, so we look at sentiment, and we look at visitors, and we look at reservations, so on. And so far, we're not, you know, in two weeks into the conflict, of course, remember. So, yeah, we're not seeing an impact yet. You know? And I think, you know, our customers are, you know, clearly having to balance, you know, their their views and considerations of what's happening in the world with their own life requirements and where they are in their in in their own, you know, life choices.

27:44 So not seeing an impact yet, but we'll obviously monitor that very, very closely. You know, in terms of capital allocation, I mean, clearly, what we're what I set out in the presentation is that what we're doing and we'll continue to do is to prioritize building remediation. We're paying a a a sustainable dividend, and we're we're at the moment investing into land. I mean, clearly, you know, we we keep that under review and keep also, you know, capital returns under review. And what we've said is that as we get further through building radiation work, we'll then talk about how we will refresh that capital allocation policy and whether that means additional dividends or buybacks or further investment into land. Thank you. And then the other two sort of are are linked, you know, to that.

28:29 So the first one is how does the war in Iran need how long, sorry, does the war in Iran need to continue to bring a major change in your expected outcome for the year? And then linked to that, the second question is when the market declines and less buyers are forthcoming, how quickly can you shrink production or is it demand driven? Okay. So on the first one, really, the question, I think, for us is how the war in Iran affects the business. And the first way we think it is is I've just we we just talked about is about customer sentiment and and demand. So are we seeing demand coming through still or not? So that's the first thing that we're monitoring. And the second is how does any disruption or any impact affect build cost and and build cost inflation or availability of products? So as I said, look, we've contacted all of our suppliers. So so I think if the conflict is relatively short, the supply chain has more short term resilience than it probably has two, three, four years ago.

29:30 But clearly, you know, the supply chain is not immune to what's happening. And the longer the conflict goes on, the more chance that there's a transmission of whether it be through from energy costs or otherwise through into build cost inflation, probably more likely to affect the back end of this year and into '27 from a cost perspective, but, clearly, demand can move a little bit quicker than that. So, you know, we have to monitor that and just and react, you know, to to the to the indicators that we're seeing. And then I suppose the the the second side of that, which is about, well, how quickly can we change production? So what we can you know, depending on the stage of production of individual properties, you know, you can stop at various places. You typically you might want to get products dry to protect it from from the weather before, you know, to maybe stop doing some of the internal work or the fit out. If demand is falling away, you might look to sell stock properties, you know, earlier than properties further down the field and so on and so on. But, again, you know, we can clearly change and speed up and slow down our build progress dependent on sales and sales rates that we're seeing.

30:36 Thank you. And then sort of changing slightly and looking at sort of the the multi brand strategy, Harry's got a question. How are the relative returns on build to rent and partnership sales evolving versus private sales, particularly in terms of operating margin, capital turn and overall return on capital employed? Okay. So so I guess maybe taking the two sides of the question. So from a margin perspective, what we're doing in particular on so so particularly on build to rent, by engaging strategically, we're finding we get better value because what we're doing is we're now designing built through end products into our schemes. We're designing product that built through end partners want to take in which they find is is suitable for for the rental markets that they work in. So that means that we get better value for the products that we sell. So that helps make sure that we're selling to the built rent market, you know, on the front foot rather than sort of selling at a discount to to sort of shift stock, if you like, which would be the the alternative way.

31:34 And then from a return on capital perspective, you I think it really helps drive return on capital because it allows me to speed up delivery on-site. So if you can imagine a large housing development, if I only have a single product, like, called PERSIMMON, for example, then I've got one market that I'm selling to, and I'm selling at a particular sales rate, point seven, whatever it is per week on that site. If I can layer into that same site a Charles Church outlet, and as I said in the presentation, it doesn't compete with PERSIMMON. It's a different price point. It's a different customer. In fact, in some cases, it kinda tracks more customers to the site, but that allows me to increase my overall sales rate on the site. So I'm now selling from two sales outlets.

32:20 And if I can also further fold into that some build to rent sales, which is presold to a institutional customer, that allows me to return to to churn that land and and to to develop that land quicker than I could do just by having a single sales outlet. And so that in turn drives my return on capital. So that's why we think this you know, for large schemes, this multi branding approach is really helping us increase return on capital. Thank you. And then we're gonna change, like, tact again slightly and sort of looking back at the land bank. First one is, please, can you give a rough geographic profile of the approximate 40,000 plots with detailed planning consent? Yeah. It's it's it's it's pretty well spread across the across the country. So, obviously, one of the things that we are keen to make sure is that our land is, you know, is well placed rather than rather than being too geographically concentrated.

33:15 So in terms of the overall land bank, the 85,000, it is 15% of that is Charles Church, and then of the other 85%, it's 44% is in the northern part of the country and 41% in the Southern. So that's of the eighty five thousand land bank. And and the subset, which is the the the sites with detailed planning percent, would be a similar similar ratio. And just, you know, sticking with planning, has there been any meaningful change in local authority attitudes to granting planning consent over the last six months? And can you give a bit of a view on the outlook as well, please, sir? Yeah. It it's really hard to give a kind of single answer because, actually, local authorities are so individual.

34:02 So what we're finding is, look, the government planning reforms we think are very helpful. They're not yet impacting on the ground because it's there is a bit of a transition time. Some of the planning infrastructure act still needs to be enacted. Nutrient nature restoration fund, for example, some of the statutory consultees that need secondary legislation. So some of that's not yet fully effective on the ground. We're finding some, you know, success in local planning authorities and some, you know, frustrations still exist. That's why it's helpful the government has opened up the new homes accelerator program to smaller sites so that we can really engage central government on helping us there. And we have a very active team of external affairs people who work sorry, internal employees who work with local planning officers and work with local planning committees to really try to make our planning applications as attractive as possible to really drive some success. And you can see that last year, we we had planned success on around 12 and a half thousand plots, and we delivered 11,900.

35:06 So we ended the year in a better position than we started it. But it's still hard work. It's still you know, we have to focus on it site by site, local authority by local authority rather than there being a kind of step change across the country, I would say. Thank you. And then we've got a question just on labor. So are you experiencing any problems with labor availability and in particular with specific trades? I I would say no. It is I mean, look. I can find you a site somewhere which is struggling to get x or y or two or three people short of this or that. But but across the piece, no. Certainly nothing systemic. And I think, you know, there's a couple of things. You know, that's where we are now. But don't forget as a country, we're delivering a lot fewer houses than we were a few years ago. You know, I'm also conscious that this is a question which has a kind of medium term aspect to it around, well, actually, how does the country deliver more volume? You know? So as as as volumes grow across the sector, will this become an issue?

36:02 And that's why, you know, we're investing in apprentices. It's why we pay our supply chain properly. You have to look after our supply chain. It's why we are investing in our own products and off-site manufacture all to mitigate, you know, potential risks in terms of labor shortages in the future. But as we sit here today, no. There's no no specific issues there. Thanks, Andrew. So we don't have any more questions, but we do just have a comment from Chris to say, please say thanks for doing these investor meet sessions. They are great. So with that, I think I'll just hand over final remarks. Okay. Well, Chris, thank you thank you for that. That is that is helpful feedback. And I've I've done these sessions for a few years now in in in in my previous company as well. And and I do think as well as as you say that they are they're very helpful. So I'm thank you for that feedback.

36:54 And and I suppose more broadly, everybody, thank you all for attending. I think PERSIMMON is well placed. We had a very good year in 2025. We had a good start to 2026. So thank you for attending today, and I look forward to updating you again if in in due course of, hopefully, PERSIMMON's continued progress. Thank you. Perfect. Andrew, Vicki, if I may just jump back in there. Thank you very much indeed for updating investors, this morning. Could I please ask investors not to close this session as you'll now be automatically redirected to provide your feedback? On behalf of the management team of PERSIMMON PLC, we would like to thank you for attending today's presentation. That now concludes today's session. So good morning to you all.