Litigation Capital Management (LSE:LIT) — Full Year Results

0:01 Good morning, and welcome to the LITIGATION CAPITAL MANAGEMENT LIMITED Full Year Results Investor Presentation. Throughout this quarter presentation, investors will be in listen only mode. Questions are encouraged and can be submitted at any time for the Q and A tab situated in the right hand corner of your screen. Just simply type in your questions and press send. The company may not be in a position to answer every question it receives in the meeting itself. However, the company can review all the questions submitted today and publish responses where it's appropriate to do so. Before we begin, I'd like to submit the following poll.

0:28 I'd now like to hand you to Patrick Maloney, CEO. Good morning to you, sir. Good morning. Good morning to investors joining us here in The UK, and good evening to those joining from Australia. Welcome to LCM's full year results presentation for financial year '24. I'm joined by David Collins for the first time who has joined LCM as our chief financial officer. You'll hear from him as we go through the presentation in relation to financial matters. So I wanna start off by just identifying some of the the the key points in terms of momentum that we have achieved during the past financial period. And the first one is the financial highlights.

1:15 Total income of 44,700,000, which generates a profit before tax of 16,100,000 Australian dollars. Net assets of 94p per share, and the dividend declared of £1.25 p per share. In respect of our performance and our tracking performance, we have had eight realizations or eight investments mature during the relevant period, generating 56,000,000 of of gross revenue at a 2.4 multiple. We have an unrealized portfolio of ongoing investments of 58.

2:03 We have post period end realizations early in the new financial period of 13,500,000, and that was generated at a multiple of invested capital of 9.5 times. In terms of our thirteen year track record, we are tracking at a 2.9 multiple in respect of every single investment that we have realized during that thirteen year period, inclusive of losses. In terms of powering long term growth, we have increased very significantly the commitments in the last period compared to the prior period to 270,000,000 Australian. That's an increase of 53%. And we'll talk a little bit more about our strategy in terms of new commitments as we present through the slide deck.

2:54 We've committed capital of 725,000,000, and that's up 50 percent. In respect of the funds management business, the performance fees that we generated during the the financial period of of 12,000,000 over the cumulative duration of fund one to date, it's generated performance fees 40,000,000. Fund one is fully committed and 75% deployed at this point. In terms of the realizations in respect of fund one, they've generated a net return for LP investors of 61%. And that's a really important metric because that really solidifies our ability to go out into the market and raise capital in terms of fund three.

3:48 Fund two is around 60% now committed, and we've got a really strong pipeline that's feeding into that, which should put us in a position where we are marketing fund three in the coming months and certainly prior to the end of this calendar year. In terms of LCM's debt position, we have negotiated new facility with our existing lender. It has two features which are important. The first one is we've negotiated a reduced interest rate in respect of that moving forward, and we've also negotiated some extra capacity. So we're really pleased with that. We have an expectation that we will have that completely finalized within about a month to six weeks.

4:37 In terms of looking forward, we've got three strategic priorities that we're focused upon. And the first one is continuing to transition across into an asset management business model. Now we'll talk a little bit more strategically about why that's important and demonstrate how we've been able to really maximize the returns in respect of every dollar of LCM's invested capital by utilizing third party funds. So we're transitioning into the asset management really well. The next one is that we've reached a point in the evolution of LCM where we are ready to deploy a staged entry into The US market.

5:22 Again, I'll talk a little bit more detail about this, but The US is the largest disputes market globally and presents really fantastic opportunity for LCM. Now as investors will know from when we have expanded LCM's footprint into other territories, we've always done that in a very disciplined fashion, and we will enter The US market in the same really disciplined fashion. And finally, a really exciting development is that we have acquired a big data and artificial intelligence platform. That platform allows us really access to three things. First, an enormous amount of data that we simply could not gain access to through traditional methods.

6:09 Secondly, the ability to originate opportunities in the market for investment that we wouldn't have access to otherwise, and it's enhancing our ability to really make decisions about which application should translate into investments and which should not. So it should provide us with a really significant advantage in respective markets that we're moving into. So take going back to our transition into asset management. LCM currently has raised just above 440,000,000 US across two funds. We've partnered with the highest quality LPs, and we've developed long term relationships with them, which we expect to translate into fund three, four, and five moving forward.

7:00 We've been able to access the very best quality LPs in respect of that asset management model, simply because LCM has been in this business since its very inception in Australia. We're one of the pioneers of the litigation funding industry, and we've been able to come to a funds management model with an exceptional track record. And that has allowed us to really gain investment capital from the very best LPs will have the ability to grow with us through future funds. In terms of fund one, we've had about eight realizations now of investments, and they have generated a net return for LP investors of 61%.

7:46 And that really solidifies our ability to approach them and gain additional capital for them in terms of funds moving forward. Fund two is performing in line with our expectations. We've had no realizations in respect to fund two to date. However, all of those investments are currently tracking in the way that we expect them to. In terms of performance fees, they're restarting to flow through to LCM and LCM's balance sheet. In the last financial period, we had approximately 12,000,000 Australian dollars in respect to performance fees. And over the life of fund one to date, we've generated performance fees of around 40,000,000. We're really demonstrating the power of being able to leverage third party funds and how that translates into, you know, cap capital flowing into LCM's revenue line.

8:42 We have an expectation that we'll be going to market and marketing fund three in the next few months, at least before the end of this calendar year, and we have some expectation that some of our existing cornerstone investors will continue to support us by going into funds three and moving forward from there. In terms of the asset management or funds management model, I think this slide really demonstrates the ability to leverage that third party capital. What we're doing here is we're really demonstrating the difference in terms of returns to LCM and LCM's revenue line from the old capital intensive model of balance sheet investing as against the new funds management or asset manager model.

9:35 These are all investments which have resolved in the past period. So the first one is a balance sheet investment. LCM's investment was 2,800,000. That on upon resolution derived a 4.3 multiple of invested capital. LCM's total revenue in respect of that investment was 12,000,000. We now compare that to what that looks like in terms of an investment which is co funded from balance sheet but using utilizing a majority of third party capital. We have a fund one investment which is realized. The investment was 6,800,000. LCM's contribution was 2,200,000. The overall investment generated a multiple of 3.8 times.

10:26 In respect of performance fees, LCM generated 6,100,000, which was a blend really of our direct investment and performance fees. And what that has done is it's increased LCM's revenue or its return to a 6.6 times multiple generating total revenue for LCM of 14,500,000. So investors can really see the leverage that we are able to bring to LCM's balance sheet as we scale this asset management model. Next, I want to move to, you know, the opportunity that which we have and is now available to us with respect to The US market. Most investors will recognize that The US is the largest disputes market globally.

11:15 It's larger than all of the other markets that we have operated in historically, and it provides a very significant opportunity. The US market in terms of total commitments is estimated to be around $3,000,000,000 across our entire industry. In addition to it being a larger disputes market, it also has different types of investments which aren't currently available in any of the other markets that we operate in. And that is providing contingency law firms with a portfolio of capital to invest across a large contingent fee book. Now that allows us to invest much larger parcels of capital at reduced risk.

12:06 In addition, the the big data and AI platform that we have acquired recently is built for The US market, And we are looking at that in terms of expanding that into other markets, but it is tailor built to operate in The US market.

12:26 Just moving to, you know, the benefits that can be brought to us after acquiring this technology, and the first one lies in data. So this model gives us access to an enormous amount of data that we couldn't possibly crunch through in the more traditional anodyne way of sort of getting access to that data and then manually analyzing it. The platform allows us to analyze, you know, great swathes of data very, very quickly in a way that we could not possibly do in a manual fashion. In in many ways, the asset class of litigation finance is perfectly suited towards the use of of data and AI strategies, but it's important to remember that what we are not doing here is we are not replacing the very skilled investment managers which currently undertake that work, but rather enhance that job that they can undertake in respect of measuring the risk associated with investments by the use of data.

13:32 The next aspect of this platform that I want to talk about is its ability to enhance our origination or give us access to enormous parts of the market that we currently do not have access to, not only in The US, but potentially in the other markets in which we operate. So it allows us to scrape data in real time and give us access to disputes as soon as they're filed within the various jurisdictions across The US market. And finally, I wanna touch upon the ability of this platform to assist us in terms of our underwriting capabilities or underwriting the risk of these investments. As I say, it's not a replacement for what we currently do with our investment managers, which is take a given set of facts, apply the law, and predict the outcome.

14:24 This allows us to apply enormous volumes of data to that decision making process that we simply could not have done previously in the way that we undertake that due diligence exercise. So some really some really significant advantages that are available to us through the acquisition of that platform.

14:47 Then looking at LCM more widely, as most investors know, we're a pioneer in this industry. We've got a 25 track record. Over that twenty five years, we have an 87% win ratio, and that's across circa 275 separate concluded investments. We have generated over the last thirteen years industry leading returns, a multiple of invested capital of 2.86 times, and that's from $444,000,000 worth of cash realizations. In terms of the markets that are available to us, and in particular, The US market, they present a really very significant and large opportunity. The US market is estimated to be in the order of 700,000,000,000 per annum, and the estimated sort of penetration rate in respect to the litigation finance industry is around 1%.

15:48 So really attractive market and a very large market. In terms of the capital that we're applying and the business model that we are applying to that market and the established markets that we're in, the funds management model as we've demonstrates really enhances the returns. We currently have two funds with 441,000,000 of u US dollars of capital under management. We maintain a conservative balance sheet, cash at the end of period 53,000,000, and live cases as part of a portfolio of 58 separate investments moving forward. And finally, just touching upon our CAGR of 17% in net net assets per share.

16:37 Just want to remind investors of some of the attributes of our asset class, which are really important. The first one is that the returns that we're able to generate from these underlying investments is uncorrelated to the wider markets. And what I mean by that is at its most basic level, we invest in disputes, and those disputes are resolved through one of two ways. They're either the subject of a commercial negotiation between the parties, or they're adjudicated by a judge or an arbitrator. And that judge or arbitrator is unaffected by what's happening in the wider markets, whether the wider markets are suffering from economic stress or uncertainty or high inflation or high interest rates. They simply apply the law to a given set of facts and they adjudicate in that fashion.

17:31 So the outcome of these individual investments is otherwise uncorrelated to what's happening in the wider market unlike almost all other asset classes. We operate in a market which is largely underpenetrated. I've given you some of the data historically in respect to the markets that we operate, and now that we sort of look towards The US and moving into The US as we are, that is a vast and remains relatively under penetrated at around 1%. There are enormous barriers to entry in respect of litigation finance as an asset class in in a number of fashions. First of all, the ability to actually gain the skill set to be able to operate successfully in our asset classes are exceptionally difficult to get. And for those of us who've operated in this industry since inception, we've managed to garner a significant amount of experience over those twenty five years of operation.

18:35 In addition, without a demonstrable track record that LCM has, it's very hard to get access to meaningful amounts of capital. I wanna move next to the countercyclical nature of this strategy. We have economic conditions which are punctuated with uncertainty, volatility, and the potential for there to be economic downturns. Those types economic conditions drive demand for capital in our industry. So right from one end, which is the insolvency of restructuring space, right through to the use of litigation finance by large and sophisticated corporate users. All of all of that market is the increased demand when you have uncertain economic conditions.

19:25 Two more points to make. First of all, our investments in the individual disputes that we invest in tend to be tend to have a much shorter duration than equivalent asset classes that we compare to such as private equity and venture capital. So we're guiding investors that we expect that investments moving forward will average between thirty six and forty two months. Some will be less than that, some will be more than that, but that is about the the duration that we should expect moving forward. And finally, these investments tend to exhibit asymmetric returns. In other words, the ability to generate returns which are a multiple of our invested capital as distinct from the potential for loss, the the returns can be much outsized compared to with the potential downside.

20:22 And just moving forward to looking at LCM's track record over the last thirteen months sorry, last thirteen years, that represents 208,000,000 Australian dollars worth of commitments, deployments of around a 155,000,000 against that. We've got adjudicated wins, losses, and settlements,

20:43 and we can see the metrics which have been generated from those. So a $149,000,000 worth of realizations at a 5.4 multiple, and an IRR of a 143. In respect of losses, not only not notwithstanding that we've had losses, we've actually generated returns of 5,200,000 from those. And then finally, settlements, the largest of those categories, $289,700,000 worth of realizations at a 2.8 times multiple and a 2203% IRR. And those all together generate our thirty year track record of 2.9 times multiple and a 77% IRR inclusive of losses.

21:32 And the observation I'd make here is is the requisite returns that one makes from an adjudicated realization of 5.4 times as distinct from settlements at a 2.8 times multiple. And then I'll pass over to David in terms of the financials. Great. Okay. Good morning, everyone. So I'm gonna start on slide 15. And this gives you a summary of our investments broken down into three categories, being the investments that concluded in the period, the new investments that we added in the period, and then the ongoing investments that we have at the end of the period. And I think it's important to start with these three categories because they really drive then what plays out through the p and l balance sheet and cash flow statements.

22:22 So if we start on the left hand side, so you can see we had eight investments concluded in the period. That was six wins and two losses. And in aggregate, they generated $56,000,000 of proceeds for LCM, inclusive of $12,700,000 of performance fees. And I think as Patrick mentioned, that translates the cases that concluded in the period translates into a 2.4 x multiple of invested capital for LCM. For the new investments, we continue to see strong demand, and we've made 16 new investments in the period, which in total sum to new commitments of $279,000,000. That's up over 50% on the prior period, and I think the prior period was up a similar amount as well. And I'll come back a little bit later on and talk about how we've been stepping up those new commitments to take advantage of the fund management model that we're now operating under.

23:19 On the right hand side, you can see the ongoing investments, which is 58 ongoing investments at the balance sheet date. If we break those down, so four 44 of those investments are co co funded via our fund management model, where we typically invest 25% of the capital into the cases, and the remaining 75% comes from the third party funds that we manage. And then 40 cases are funded 100% by our own balance sheet. The vast majority of those, you know, in terms of committed and invested capital relates to three historic Australian cases that we value on our balance sheet at at cost, and I'll come on come back and touch on those a little bit later on as well.

24:08 Finally, you can see on the slide, I've included a table which summarizes the total commitments for LCM for fund one investors and for fund two investors alongside the amount of capital that we invested in the period and the cumulative capital invested to date into those ongoing 58 investments. And later on, I'm gonna come back and talk about our progress in terms of both committed capital and invested capital is I think those best signal the strong

24:38 growth that LCO has been delivering over the last five years. So let's move now to talk to the p and l. So here you can see the $56,000,000 of proceeds that we generated from those eight concluded cases with 43,300,000 being the proceeds from investing our own capital and $12,700,000 being the performance fees that we earned on third the third third party capital. To date,

25:10 all the performance fees that we've earned have come from concluded investments in fund one. So fund one was launched in March 2020, And to date, seven of the investments in Fund one have concluded, all successfully. And so cumulatively, we've earned over $40,000,000 in performance fees from those successful conclusions to date. At a gross IRR perspective, they translate into an IRR of around 80%.

25:39 And then in terms of what flows to our LP investors, net of the performance fees and net of all of the costs, I think as Patrick mentioned, you know, our LP investors are currently looking at a net IRR of 61%, which we think is a very strong performance.

25:57 So for the eight investments that concluded in the period, you can see on the third the third line that LCM invested $23,800,000 of its own capital into those cases. And so netted against the $56,000,000 of proceeds, that gives us a net realized gain of $32,200,000. Below the net realized gain, you can see the net fair value impact on the p and l in the period of around $12,500,000, so somewhat comparable to the prior period. If I break that net fair value movement down, there's two key components to it. So the first of all is the fair value in relation to concluded investments that we write off on realizations. So that's 30,900,000, which is a negative impact on the line.

26:44 And then the positive impact is $43,400,000, and that relates to the fair value uplift in ongoing cases as we deploy more capital into those investments. And when I get onto the balance sheet, I'll spend a little time describing our approach to the fair value methodology and why we think it's conservative. So if you take the sum of the realized gains and the net fair value movement, you can see that we had total income in the period of $44,700,000, and that is down on the prior period,

27:18 but that simply reflects that the prior year had a greater volume of concluding investments. And I think the key thing to focus on is the multiple of invested capital that we're generating on the concluded investments. And as mentioned earlier, that 2.4 x multiple that we achieved in FY '24, we think, is still strong and is consistent with our long term track record.

27:41 Below total income, we see operating expenses, came in at $19,000,000 That's a 20% increase over the prior period, and it's largely attributable to three factors. First of all, about twelve months ago, we put through a salary increase for all staff of 5%, and it was part of the annual salary salary review. And that just reflects the inflationary environment at the time.

28:06 We've also had an increase in headcount of four people over the period, which takes us up to 24 staff total. And then we've also incurred some consulting fees in the London market as we focused on enhancing our origination capabilities there. Looking further down the p and l, you'll see finance costs of $10,200,000 that reflects the impact of the higher interest rate environment on our debt facility. So if we bring this all together, it produces PBT of $16,000,000 for the period or $12,700,000 on an after tax basis. And just looking forward in terms of the tax rate, I'd expect the effective tax rate to be 27.5%, which is the average of the Australian and UK corporation tax rates.

28:54 So if we move now to the balance sheet. So again, starting from the top, you can see we've got cash of $53,000,000, which gives us a strong liquidity position. And if you look a little bit further down the balance sheet, you'll see borrowings of $61,900,000. So netting those two against each other gives us net debt of $8,900,000 at the end of the period, so a modest net debt position. Below cash, can see we have 15,000,000 of debtors. Around 12,000,000 of that has been collected post period end. And then the main feature of the asset side of our balance sheet is clearly our clearly our investments. You can see that broken down into two lines. So in total, the investments sum to 243,000,000 Aussie dollars, and that's broken into investments held at fair value of $202,900,000, and that relates to 55 of those 58 ongoing cases.

29:53 The remaining three cases are those those old sort of Australian cases, which are held at cost for historic accounting reasons, and that comprises the $42,100,000 that you can see see there on the balance sheet. Looking a little bit further down. Well, actually, let's just pause there. So take that $243,000,000. So one way for you to think about, you know, is that conservative, is the cash that we've invested into those 58 ongoing cases is a $128,000,000 as of the period end. So if you take that two four three and you divide by a 128, that will give you a a multiple of cash invested of 1.9 times.

30:41 And if you think about comparing that to our long term track record of achieving 2.9 times, We think that gives you some evidence that the way that we are fair valuing these investments is conservative in terms of that balance sheet value.

30:58 So moving down further down the balance sheet to the liabilities section. So we've spoken about the borrowings. You can see the the other balance beneath that is deferred tax and tax payable. The vast majority of that that balance relates to deferred tax on the fair value assets on our balance sheet. So effectively, by recognizing fair value on ongoing cases, we've created an unrealized gain on the asset side of the balance sheet. So we therefore need to create a corresponding unrealized deferred tax liability in relation to that unrealized gain. The other creditors that you see there at the period end primarily relate to invoices that we've received for case funding that have subsequently been paid post period end.

31:44 And if you bring this all together, at the end of the period, we had net assets of a $188,900,000, you know, equal to 94p on a per share basis. And it's worth also noting that 94p is net of the 2.25p per share dividend that was declared with the FY '23 results that was paid in the first half of this year. So let's move now to the cash flow statement. So we've begun the period with cash of $83,000,000 and we generated cash from those concluded investments of $56,700,000 We invested just shy of $40,000,000 of our own cash into case funding, and

32:26 it's worth noting that the typical life of one of our investments is is between three and four years. So the cash that we invest into cases is typically spread across several accounting periods. Below that, we have $17,000,000 of operating expenses and $9,000,000 of interest costs. The difference between the the amount shown here in the cash flow statement and the p and l is simply accruals. So we have some accruals for operating expenses for professional fees, rents, things like that.

32:57 And for interest, we have an accrual for the original issue discount on our debt that we accrue for and we'll pay back when that debt is repaid. Below that, we have the dividend and the share buyback, so summing just over $10,000,000 in total. And I think as Patrick mentioned earlier on, the buyback is around 70% complete as of today, and that will continue until conclusion later this financial year. You'll also see debt repayments. So we took the opportunity to repay part of our borrowings around $8,000,000. That was to reduce interest costs. And then the other cash movement that you see there is is tax paid in The UK in relation to successful case conclusions in the prior period.

33:43 But this leaves us with a strong cash position at the end of the period of around $53,000,000. So before I close, so we've walked through sort of P and L balance sheet cash flow, giving you a one year view. I think given the long term nature of this business, it's more interesting to look at look at what's happening over a longer period. And so on slide 19, I've set out here the growth in new commitments, committed capital, and invested capital. So new commitments is the the new the new business that we're effectively out adding every year. Committed capital is the the the sum of all commitments as of the balance sheet date for those ongoing cases, and then invested capital is the cash that we've invested into those cases to date.

34:30 You know, in my opinion, the growth in committed capital and invested capital are the best indicators of the growth that LCM has been delivering over the last five years. So so you can see committed capital there has grown strongly at a compound annual growth rate of over 40% since f y nineteen. And similarly, invested capital has grown at a CAGR of over 60% over the same period. And, ultimately, it's the returns that we generate on this invested capital that will drive shareholder value over the long term. I think the other thing to note on this slide is you can see the change in mix. So over time, you can see the growth in the third party capital via our funds model. That benefits our shareholders because it reduces the capital intensity for LCM, but it also brings in the potential to earn lucrative performance fees on those third party assets.

35:26 And then the last slide for me is slide 20, and this is just showing you how our operating expenses as a percentage of committed capital have been steadily declining over time as we've driven that growth in the committed capital base, and we think that the operating expenses will ultimately fall below 2% of committed capital. And I would take that as a as a good signal that we've successfully transitioned to an asset management model on a sustainable basis. So with that, I'll hand back to Patrick for the outlook. Conscious of time, I I think what a lot of investors were looking at when LCM came to the public markets here in The United Kingdom and then prior to that in the public markets in Australia was whether LCM was able to replicate its track record moving forward. What we've been able to demonstrate is that we are able to replicate that track record over an extended period of time and over multiple cycles of capital.

36:30 So the real focus that we have got from a management team's perspective is now starting to scale this business. You can measure scale by the increased number of commitments. We've also demonstrated that whilst we're scaling this business and maintaining the track record that we've been able to achieve, we've been able to reduce our operating expenses as a measurement against commitments that we make over a period of time. Next thing I wanna touch upon is the sheer size of the opportunity that entering the The US markets. As investors will know, when we have sought to expand and put down a base and put boots on the ground in new jurisdictions historically, we've been very measured and very disciplined about the way we do that. We've been looking at The US market now for a number of years. We've decided given the strength of the business that we've developed here in the London market and across Europe, in the Asian market through Singapore, and our traditional market of Australia, that we're now ready and it's now the right time for us to be moving into The US market. It's a vast market.

37:39 And finally, I wanna just touch upon the acquisition of this big data and AI platform. First of all, it provides a staging point for us to operate in The US. It it is a system which has been generated so far for The US markets. I just wanna give an example of this just to sort of make this relatable to investors. And I wanna pick investor state treaty investments. So this is a kind of claim where we will fund a party in a claim brought under a treaty against a sovereign. Now this AI platform is able to crunch enormous amount of data and make some predictions with respect to that data and and how a newly commenced case will perform.

38:27 And just let me give you a couple of data points so that you can sort of relate to the power of this system. When when we are considering a new investment, we think and in particular, a treaty investment, we think about a number of dynamics, not just the state of the law and the given set of facts. We're looking at the skill of the practitioners involved. We're looking at the makeup of that arbitral panel, and we're looking at the behavior of that sovereign. And this data platform crunches every single data point with respect to everyone involved in that dispute since they begin began practicing. So we can measure the actual performance of the lawyers that are acting. We can measure the actual performance of the arbitrators who sit on that panel. We can measure the actual performance of that sovereign rather than get a subjective view about that from the market generally.

39:23 So that's just about one example of the sheer power of this AI platform and this big data platform that we have acquired. And just conscious the number of questions that we've got, I might close there and and open the floor to questions. Thank you very much for the presentation. Ladies and gentlemen, please do continue to submit your questions. You can do that just by using the q and a tab, which is situated on the top right hand corner of your screen. Just while the company take a few moments through the questions that have been submitted today, I'd like to remind you the recording of this presentation along with a copy of the slides and the published q and a can be accessed via your investor dashboard. As you can see, we have received a number of questions, both presubmitted and throughout today's live event. And Joss, at this point, if I can hand over to you to start the Q and A with pre submitted questions, that'd be great. And then I'll pick up from the room at the end.

40:11 Thanks very much, Patrick and David. So some of these questions have actually been answered during the presentation, so bear with us. But just on the share buyback program, perhaps, David, can you just reiterate where you are and what the expectation is going forward on that? Yes. So as of today, the buyback is around 70% complete. And as we put in the RNS, that's gonna be ongoing. So we would expect that will conclude later this financial year, this 2025 financial year for us. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. There's a question around the research in the market. What research is in the market at moment on the company? I should just add to that last question.

40:59 Investors have also asked us why we can't sort of speed up the process of that buyback. It's a heavily regulated area here on The UK markets, and we are constrained in terms of what we can buy. It's a backward looking metric, and we can only buy a certain percentage of the previous five days trade. So just in answer to some investors who've been asking us why simply can't we speed up that process, It is heavily regulated. We can't do it any quicker than what we're doing. Yeah. But we are buying back at the limits to what we can do every day. And just on the research and market. Sure. So our brokers will there are estimates out there. So ZEUS CAPITAL published a note, and our brokers will also be sort of putting their numbers back out into the marketplace over the coming week or so. Thank you.

41:53 There's a question on whether you would consider follow on investments with an example given of Panthera. Do you do this? Do you think you miss an opportunity if you don't do this in terms of enhanced terms? Does that exist? Yeah. I think I think certainly follow on investments or secondary investments is something that we sort of follow the market in and we watch quite closely. But when it comes to sort of measuring risk associated with the type of secondary investment that's being considered here, which is the Panthera Resources one. That's really an investment from our perspective at an equity level of that company, and it's subjected to all sorts of risks that we were really not capable of making a proper assessment in. We feel much more comfortable making the the investment decision at a disputes level as distinct from taking an equity position in the funded party.

42:50 Wonderful. Thank you. And and noting that a lot of cases are outside your control. That said, there's three questions on GreenX and Greenspan Power. Is there any update you can give on the timeline for that, of those two cases? So we we we get a lot of inquiry about certainly GreenX and historically different other publicly identified investments which form part of our portfolio. With respect to GreenX, it's it's completely out of our hands. That was a hearing that took place more than eighteen months ago now. That tribunal ought to be giving determination in respect of that at any particular time. Just touching upon the acquisition of the big data and AI platform, that will give us an enormous amount of data with respect to duration risk, with respect to investments of that nature on an empirical basis rather than what we have at the moment, which is really just sentiment.

43:56 So no real update in respect of GreenX. No one should read anything into that good or bad in respect to the underlying merits of that. It's just taken this much time for that arbitral panel to deliver its award. In respect of the the Queensland Energy claim, we've had a first hearing in respect of the issues associated with any competitive behavior. The decision with respect to that has been reserved, and we would expect all things being equal sometime between three and twelve months that we'll get a judgment in respect that investment. Thank you. And then this is a question just around the explosion portfolio.

44:42 Both of was driven by a large win. Does LCM have any cases where it has a similar large participation percentage? I mean, if you look at the way we structure deals, so typically, our terms are you know, we'll get the higher of a multiple of our invested capital or a percentage share of the rewards. But we do have cases portfolio where the nominal value of the claim is very large. So that upside is there. But I guess I would focus people on look at the growth in that invested capital that I show showed on slide 19, and it's the returns, you know, those multiples of invested capital on that invested capital base that's gonna ultimately drive shareholder value here. And I think there's a strong signal there in terms of that growth in committed and invested capital and the multiples that we're generating.

45:35 I think investors can get comfortable with that. And then, yes, there is the potential for big wins potentially coming from our portfolio, but I focus more on on the invested capital from my side. And and if I can just add to that, when we build a portfolio of investments of disputes, whether it be for fund one or for fund two, we are trying to build a portfolio which is not suffering from concentration risk in any one single large investment, and that's punctuated by diversity across industry sector, across jurisdiction, and all of those things are really fundamental to the way we think about portfolio construction in the same ways you might think about that in respect of other asset classes. Thank you both. A question on NAV to cash. Why is it so low given most cases are advanced many are subject to performance fees? Is this an indicator of portfolio deterioration or the LTM conservatism to fair value?

46:36 Okay. So there's a few things there. So if you think about it, just stepping back. So when we invest cash into the cases, so that that cash goes from the cash line on our balance sheet into the investments line. And I think I said this, the of the 58 ongoing cases, we've invested a $128,000,000 of cash into those cases. So I think we need to think about that in terms of rather than just looking at the the cash balance, you know, on on the balance sheet alone. I don't think there's any real meaningful analogy there comparing the cash to the NAV. In fact, if we were mostly cash in a lower investment balance, that would signal that the business was sort of in decline as I showed in slide nineteen, we've been growing that growing that the value of the the portfolio over time.

47:29 I don't think I think it was a question on is there a sign of deterioration? No. I mean, if you wanna think about the quality of the of the portfolio, just I would focus on those the track record. Right? So the 2.9 x multiple of invested capital. And if we look at the period, so 2.4 x multiple of invested capital in the last twelve months. Remember, that's just capturing those investments that concluded in that twelve month window. Right? We signaled that there was a case that concluded actually just a couple of weeks beyond the window where we've made 9.5 times multiple. You know? Had that case concluded a couple of weeks earlier, then we would have been saying to you, we made actually 2.7 x in the period.

48:14 So I think if I was you in terms of thinking about the quality of the portfolio, just focus on that that long term track record and are we extending it with strong strong performance period in, period out, period out. Then was there a last Yeah. Actually, there's another question that's just come on the NAV calculation. Does that include performances? Yeah. And there was a fair value piece as well in your prior questions. So let's try and deal with both of those. So the first one, think, was is the fair value conservative? So, again, I would emphasize the fair value is value in the case on our balance sheet of 1.9 times cash invested. Again, compare that to the track record of 2.9 times. So I would say, yes. That's conservative. The other nuance, when we disclose our track record, we do so on a global basis, which means excluding performance fees.

49:07 Now how do you if we translate that 2.9 x to an inclusive of performance fees basis, that 2.9 x would increase to over four times. That's where our business model is transitioning as you've seen our balance sheet move towards this this sort of co funded model with third party funds. So I think that does emphasize that we're conservative. So that 94 p of book value is conservative. And then the question on, do we include performance fees in our fair values? Yes. We do, But that's included within the 1.9. Right? So the 1.9, we still view as conservative, and we do recognize that the component of performance fees within that. But that's still a discount to the track record or the uplift of track record if you were to translate it to the to the the funded model. Hopefully, that makes sense.

49:57 That does, David. It leads us on to another question just on that transition to the funding model. Do you provide any sort of guidance over the next five years of what that return of CAGR looks like? And and, equally, on the same time frame, what sort of range of growth in the book value per share? So just so I understand the question, the CAGR is on the growth and commitments? It's exactly that. Yes. Yep. So new commitments. So as we transition to this new fund management model where we we have this lower capital intensity and that ability to access performance fees on the third party capital. So what you have seen us doing over the last couple of years, again, as shown on slide 19, is sort of stepping up those new commitments.

50:45 So up 50% in FY '24, and similarly, '23 was also up more than 50%. So we've stepped up those new commitments $2.07 $9,000,000 in the last twelve months. I think we're operating now at the right sort of level to really leverage this fund management model. So looking forward, I think like any investment business, we don't want to promise that we're going to invest a certain amount of capital because it's gonna depend on the quality of opportunities that we see. But broadly, if we're in that sort of 200 to $300,000,000 new commitments range, and we can sustain that for a period, we think that will really sort of over time, it will flow through and drive real operating leverage in the p and l, which we think will benefit shareholders.

51:33 And then was there a second component of that? It was Oh, book value. Yes. Yeah. So we put on one of Patrick's slides, slide six or something like that, that the the compound annual growth rate in net assets per share had been 17% over the last four or five years. We feel like 15% to 20% is a good long good range for us to be delivering over the medium term, but it won't be in a perfectly straight line, just back to what we were talking about earlier on in terms of, you know, we can't really control when our investments will mature. So from from period to period, there'll be different levels of lumpiness if you like. So in f y twenty three, we have more investments concluding.

52:21 But over the medium term, which I think is how we should look at this business, I think that's sort of 15 to 20% compound growth in net assets per share is an achievable target for us to wait for. Thank you. And just on the fund model, what's the target size of fund three? Should we consider that same size as fund two or larger? We're hoping to actually attract a larger size in terms of of fund three. We're gonna set a target in respect of fund three immediately before we go to market for that. What we want to do is is pick a target that we know that we can achieve a full commitment during the investment period of twenty four months. So I would like to think that we will increase the size of fund three, perhaps to 300 sorry, three fifty, perhaps 400.

53:14 Thank you. And at the half year, you thought fund two would be fully committed by the end of the calendar year. Is that still the case? We're very well. We've got a very strong pipeline with respect to fund two, and we can go to market with respect to fund three as soon as we get to an amount of 75% fully committed. So we're pretty close to that target now. Thank you very much. Just on the new move into The US, is this a recent development given that there hasn't been an RNS and there hasn't been any disclosure of of the structure, is that for commercially sensitive reasons?

53:59 No. We've been looking at The US as a attractive market for LCM for a number of years now. I mean, the same way that we looked at The UK for a number of years before we actually opened an office here and put boots on the ground. There's really been no event thus far that of a material nature which would, you know, engage the need for us to publish an RNS. What we're doing now is we've made the decision we're entering entering The US market. We're looking at all those options which are available to us, including, you know, the availability of teams which are currently on the ground, some strategic alliance with an existing team that can convert across to become LCM's representative or any other option that might be available to us. So we've made the decision and now we're going about planning that move.

54:54 Thank you. Conscious of time, we've probably got about another two minutes for the last round of questioning. To what extent has the post year end realization of 13,500,000 been recognized in these numbers? And how much profit will be recognized in the next financial year? Yeah. So that will that case that concluded, that was not recognized in the period. So we invested $1,500,000 into that case and generated proceeds inclusive of performance fees of $13,500,000. So you can see there there's a realized gain of $12,000,000, and that would be recognized in the first half of this year. Okay. And then just back to The U. S, there's a question on the multiple of cash invested.

55:40 Do you expect this to be lower for U. S. Cases as a comparison versus return on invested capital since inception is 86%? Yeah. I think when you're talking about The US market, there's a there's a number of things to consider. Not only is it a larger market, but it also presents an opportunity for different types of investments. I mentioned during the presentation that the contingency bar in The US makes available what is known in the industry as law firm portfolios, which is providing a capital source to a law firm, which will be collaterally secured across a large portfolio of disputes. And the funder then participates by sharing in the contingent upside for the law firm. Now that is a particular product which is not available in any of the other markets which we currently invest into.

56:35 And that because it's a lower risk product, will generate lower returns than what we typically are able to generate with respect to single case investments. So it'll be a blend across a number of different investment styles once we get into The US. Perfect. Patrick, David, thank you very much for answering those questions. I might just jump in now just as as we've got we're coming to the to the hour. Just before redirecting investors for idea their feedback, which is particularly important to the company. Patrick, just wondering if you had any closing comments. Look. Only that I think from an operational level and from a commitment level, we've made tremendous strides and steps forward in the past financial period. And we've got tremendous opportunities ahead of us both with the big data and AI strategy platform that we've acquired and the opportunity of moving into new and large markets, as well as the prevailing conditions, which are driving demand for our capital across all of our existing markets that we operate in.

57:42 Patrick, David, thank you once again for updating investors today. Could I please ask investors not to close this session as you now be automatically redirected to provide your feedback in order the management team can better understand your views and expectations? This will then take a few moments to complete, so I'm sure it'll be greatly valued by the company. On behalf of the management team of LITIGATION CAPITAL MANAGEMENT LIMITED, we'd like to thank you for attending today's presentation, and good afternoon to you all.